Giving +2 worth of class levels to dragons

[Avatar of the North]

adaptive flanker + vexing flanker = self flanking given enough reach

 

[azhrei_fje]

Thanks, Avatar. I'll have to look those up.

If that were possible, then a spiked chain / spiked armor combo just got silly. I'm thinking that no, you can't flank with yourself.

True, but I wasn't talk about flanking with a weapon that has reach, I was talking about flanking with an appendage that has reach. But you're right about trying to do that with a spiked chain!!

 

[Goolpsy]

Relative to Barbarian levels? Are you joking?

What two feats give you +2 to attack and damage, and +2x HD hp, and +2 DC for your breath weapon?

And what dragon builds are really feat-hungry? When I put together high-level dragons, I have feats to spare. Fighter is terrible relative to plain Dragon HD.

Seriously, what build needs those two feats?

Cheers, -- N

The Question didn't go on making the dragon "as strong as possible"... There's no need for min maxing here...

Imo fighter levels fits the 'theme' of the dragon encounter waaaay better than barbarian levels. Depending on the dragon ofc, i couldn't really see most dragons fly into a Rage... and if that's the case.. then Barbarian without rage its weird and useless, no?

Assigning feats to a dragon to improve its fighting skills much more appropriate and in line with the general monster. Fighter levels matches the Dragons "HD-Advancement" better imho.

 

[Kwitchit]

Sorcerer levels are actually excellent for a spellcasting dragon- not only do they stack with the dragon's spellcasting, but dragon gets a familiar which is much more powerful than a PC spellcaster's/. It has half the dragon's (superb) HP and the dragon's (superb) BAB and saves, making it great for touch-spell delivery or scouting.
Also, it may even be possible to make it a viable combatant- although the way I've heard it done is dodgy rules-wise:
Select a Hawk familiar with a base 17 or 18 in Strength, giving it an actual strength of 13 or 14- and with Power Attack instead of Alertness as its Feat. (this is the dodgy bit, as I don't know if this is a "normal unmodified animal")
Use the dragon's (very high) BAB to power attack- a hawk has a +5 to hit even without BAB, so you could almost power attack for full.
Attack the party wizard.

There may be other ways to have a familiar be useful in combat- attach enchanted blades to its claws? Take Improved Familiar- if the Dragon sorcerer levels count towards it?

 

[Nifft]

Imo fighter levels fits the 'theme' of the dragon encounter waaaay better than barbarian levels. Depending on the dragon ofc, i couldn't really see most dragons fly into a Rage... and if that's the case.. then Barbarian without rage its weird and useless, no?

Chaotic dragons -- which are the majority of the evil ones -- can Rage just fine.

Assigning feats to a dragon to improve its fighting skills much more appropriate and in line with the general monster. Fighter levels matches the Dragons "HD-Advancement" better imho.

I still want to hear specifics, and see some builds which benefit from these feats.

All the goodies that a Fighter gets seem fairly useless to a dragon.
- Heavy Armor + tower shields
- Weapon proficiency
- Weapon Specialization (okay for single-weapon dudes, not claw/claw/bite/wing/wing/tail dudes).

One Dragon HD gives d12 hp, three good saves, and 6 skill points.
One Fighter HD gives d10 hp, one good save, and 2 skill points.

Sorcerer levels are actually excellent for a spellcasting dragon- not only do they stack with the dragon's spellcasting, but dragon gets a familiar which is much more powerful than a PC spellcaster's/. It has half the dragon's (superb) HP and the dragon's (superb) BAB and saves, making it great for touch-spell delivery or scouting.

I recall hearing about a dragon's familiar which basically ran the nearby human town. It was one of the improved familiars -- perhaps obtained via Arcane Familiar feat using the Dragon's full caster level?

Sounded like a fun campaign with a built-in shift of focus -- "Ye did it! Ye killt Mayor Imp! No-one has ever been brave enough t' risk th' wrath o' Deathfang! True heroes ye are!"
"Wait, who's Deathfang?"

Cheers, -- N

 

[eamon]

Sounded like a fun campaign with a built-in shift of focus -- "Ye did it! Ye killt Mayor Imp! No-one has ever been brave enough t' risk th' wrath o' Deathfang! True heroes ye are!"
"Wait, who's Deathfang?"

Cheers, -- N

That's just priceless!

 

[frankthedm]

Depending on the dragon ofc, i couldn't really see most dragons fly into a Rage... and if that's the case.. then Barbarian without rage its weird and useless, no?

Not worthless for white, black or red dragons. Speed boost always helps hit and run attackers and armor proficency raises it's AC a fair bit with some chain shirt barding. Unless the Dragon is sacrificing it's flight, heavy armor proficeny will go unused.

 

[blargney the second]

Want to increase the difficulty by 2? Just add a second identical dragon.