Elder-Basilisk
First Post
A friend of mine playing at Gen Con SoCal knocked off a CR 18 red dragon with Quivering Palm too. Such things happen when your dice are really bad.
Giving fighters something to do.
- Thread starter RangerWickett
- Start date
ZSutherland
First Post
I sympathize with you RangerWickett, I really do. I had the same problem with my last AU campaign. Somewhere around 10th level, the melee members of the group effectively became meatshields for the two casters. I can't honestly say that by the time the Unfettered 5 Medusa TPKed them (unfortunately ending the campaign) that I'd found an ideal solution. However, here are some partial solutions that seemed to work.
Henchmen are great at low/mid levels. They occupy the party a bit, extending the combat and heightening the suspense. At 10th+ level, they're about worthless. A small number of elite guards (just a few points of CR less than the BBEG) in properly situated terrain is much more valuable. If I'm a 16th level wizard, what do I need body guards for? That's why Wee-Jas invented Clone, Prismatic Wall, Forcecage, Contingency, Programmed Image, etc. Sure, the enemy wizard can only have so many of these spells prepared at any one time, but the # of spells which can be cast before hand is more than enough, and since all wizards can scribe scrolls, bonus.
Accessibility of BBEG is key at this level. If you were an incredibly intelligent malevolent archwizard, would you situate your throne room in such a way that anyone who walked through the door had a clear shot at you? If you're sixteenth level, would you even have a door to your throne room, or would your throne room be a small pocket dimension somewhere accessible to others only by means of a portal requiring a certain alignment or the slaughter of seven innocent children? Would there not be all manner of early warning signals as pesky do-gooders progressed through your carefully crafted dungeon of carnage on the way to your portal? Would you not have ample time to prepare? Is there any good reason at all to let the PCs get all the way to your throne room before fighting them? Why deal with them on terms they chose? Why not scry on them once you know they're nearby, wait until their winded and spent from a fight, and then teleport in and zap them all?
As an alternative to insta-kill spells and their ilk since you refrain from using them on your PCs (and I don't blame you), I find that my players at least hate compulsion spells far worse than just about anything. A necromancer may be distasteful, but maybe his social skills are so poor that only the undead will put up with him, but an enchantress is automatically suspect in their book. As a hint, when you compel one of them via charm or domination or whatever, give them a command and make them play out how they obey that command. Watch them squirm as they're forced to attack their own allies.
What it all really comes down to, though, is whether you're willing to pop them from time to time. A simple enough house rule a former DM of mine used to good effect was, I won't use anything on your PCs that you don't use on my NPCs. It wasn't ideal, but we were cautious about even dropping fireballs all that often.
Hope this helps,
Z
Henchmen are great at low/mid levels. They occupy the party a bit, extending the combat and heightening the suspense. At 10th+ level, they're about worthless. A small number of elite guards (just a few points of CR less than the BBEG) in properly situated terrain is much more valuable. If I'm a 16th level wizard, what do I need body guards for? That's why Wee-Jas invented Clone, Prismatic Wall, Forcecage, Contingency, Programmed Image, etc. Sure, the enemy wizard can only have so many of these spells prepared at any one time, but the # of spells which can be cast before hand is more than enough, and since all wizards can scribe scrolls, bonus.
Accessibility of BBEG is key at this level. If you were an incredibly intelligent malevolent archwizard, would you situate your throne room in such a way that anyone who walked through the door had a clear shot at you? If you're sixteenth level, would you even have a door to your throne room, or would your throne room be a small pocket dimension somewhere accessible to others only by means of a portal requiring a certain alignment or the slaughter of seven innocent children? Would there not be all manner of early warning signals as pesky do-gooders progressed through your carefully crafted dungeon of carnage on the way to your portal? Would you not have ample time to prepare? Is there any good reason at all to let the PCs get all the way to your throne room before fighting them? Why deal with them on terms they chose? Why not scry on them once you know they're nearby, wait until their winded and spent from a fight, and then teleport in and zap them all?
As an alternative to insta-kill spells and their ilk since you refrain from using them on your PCs (and I don't blame you), I find that my players at least hate compulsion spells far worse than just about anything. A necromancer may be distasteful, but maybe his social skills are so poor that only the undead will put up with him, but an enchantress is automatically suspect in their book. As a hint, when you compel one of them via charm or domination or whatever, give them a command and make them play out how they obey that command. Watch them squirm as they're forced to attack their own allies.
What it all really comes down to, though, is whether you're willing to pop them from time to time. A simple enough house rule a former DM of mine used to good effect was, I won't use anything on your PCs that you don't use on my NPCs. It wasn't ideal, but we were cautious about even dropping fireballs all that often.
Hope this helps,
Z
Evilhalfling
Adventurer
the star of our 12th lvl party is the Fighter/Archer build -
3-4 attacks per rnd, 1d8+9 damage and woe to evil outsiders, as her bane arrows come out- we are fighting mostly demons, drow,and undead and SR and resistances are making hash out of most of our spells, I play a melee cleric, who does more damage per hit (1d8+21) but has to manuver more,spend 1 round readying buffs and occasionally looking around and toss a dispel or Cure, while the fighter keeps pluging.
There seems to be plenty for everyone -
3-4 attacks per rnd, 1d8+9 damage and woe to evil outsiders, as her bane arrows come out- we are fighting mostly demons, drow,and undead and SR and resistances are making hash out of most of our spells, I play a melee cleric, who does more damage per hit (1d8+21) but has to manuver more,spend 1 round readying buffs and occasionally looking around and toss a dispel or Cure, while the fighter keeps pluging.
There seems to be plenty for everyone -
reanjr
First Post
RangerWickett said:
I think you're playing the wrong game, but I'll try to add something constructive as well.
Fighters are weak against spellcasters and vice versa. If you want the spellcaster to fight the spellcaster and the fighter to fight the warrior, you have to get some sort of way to force it to happen that way.
The players have a HUUUUGE advantage against opponents like this since bodyguard types are usually fairly weak and easy to dispatch. Once the party outnumbers the villains, it's an easy matter to use that against the opponents, as your players did.
Your players probably min/maxed themselves at least to a certain extent, so make sure you do the same with your villains, even going so far as to make the opponents have abilities tailored to the party (within reason). D&D is highly skewed to the PCs favor and this type of thing is almost necessary to even provide a mild challenge.
Your people should have used the aforementioned tactics against the players. Spellcasters are the most dangerous opponent, especially early on in the battle. Maybe you could have had the spellcaster move himself into a corner (or somewhere else defensible) and be guarded by the warrior. Giving him a much tougher meat shield than the bodyguards and forcing (or at least nudging) the fighters in the party to attack him first to get to the spellcaster.
Meanwhile, the bodyguards should have absolutely laid into the PC spellcaster. No holds barred. Drop him in a round if possible. They'll do it to you, you should return the favor. Bodyguards, as I said before aren't generally up to snuff to take on the fighter types in the party (they won't be able to hit and they'll drop like flies). But their lower attack bonuses are fully sufficient for the unarmored spellcaster and the spellcaster can't do much once surrounded. Even after making Concentration checks to cast spells defensively, he won't be able to target all of them with anything.
Meanwhile, the enemy spellcaster works on anyone trying to take out the bodyguards. The most devestating spells in the game are the ones that are negated by a successful save. Minimize this problem with Spell Focus and by attacking the right opponent (don't try a hold person on the Cleric, it just doesn't work... ever; but the fighter should fail about half the time, if the spell is heightened). Also, because combats are so short, give the spellcaster some good damage spells that are quickened. Try using the damaging spells against the "other" members of the party (rogues or clerics; rogues are better due to low hp). Magic Missile is great for this.
Also, the PCs know approximately how many hp the villains have just based on CR and class type. So your people should take advantage of knowledge of the PCs approx. hp. If a magic missile would probably put the PC spellcaster over the edge (likely, due to low hp and guarenteed damage), use it on him. Unless the enemy spellcaster heard from the underlings that the PC spellcaster has a shield spell up.
Basically, plan every major encounter with one thought in your mind: I want to absolutely screw over the PCs. I want them to crash and burn in the first round. I want to immediately scrap all of their damage potential and make them useless.
It may sound harsh, but as long as you stick to the appropriate CR, it won't happen no matter how hard you try. But you might make an encounter last longer than 3 rounds, at least.
RangerWickett
Legend
This is another problem with the current magic system. Spells allow for saves, okay. But why are the mechanics reversed with weapons and magic? With weapons, you roll to hit. With magic, you should roll to effect. Spell resistance shouldn't negate spells; it should just provide greater 'magical armor class.'
I was thinking once about how to make charm spells and saving throws work in a video game. It'd suck if your spells just didn't do anything in a video game, and a lot of players would be miffed, so I decided that you'd have to press and hold a button to cast your spell, and you'd have to keep holding it as your spell slowly worked past their defenses. Eventually, either the spell would work, or you'd give up or have your concentration disrupted.
I was thinking once about how to make charm spells and saving throws work in a video game. It'd suck if your spells just didn't do anything in a video game, and a lot of players would be miffed, so I decided that you'd have to press and hold a button to cast your spell, and you'd have to keep holding it as your spell slowly worked past their defenses. Eventually, either the spell would work, or you'd give up or have your concentration disrupted.
coyote6
Adventurer
RangerWickett said:
I'm not sure I see the difference that you're getting at*. The weapon-wielder rolls a d20, adds modifiers; if his total is equal to or greater than the AC, he weapon has its effect -- it deals damage. The spellcaster rolls a d20, adds modifiers; if his total is equal to or greater than the SR, his spell has its effect -- it deals damage, or whatever. AC, when it works, negates damage; SR, when it works, negates spells.
Is it that you want all spells to roll vs. spell resistance (and thus all things should have SR)? Presumably, roll vs SR rather than rolling to hit, allowing saves, etc.? (If so, it's that last sentence that's throwing me.)
*The difference I do see is that spells generally give the target another chance to resist (a saving throw), whereas weapons have don't allow saves; some spells also require an attack roll, which also makes 2 rolls to affect; a few spells even require attack rolls, saves, and SR (not sure if any 3.5e spells do, but the 3e orb spells from T&B did). OTOH, spells can do things weapons generally can't (charm, paralyze, etc.).
Patryn of Elvenshae
First Post
RangerWickett said:
Ponder the mysteries of Figher level, BAB, Armor Class, and Weapon Focus.
Then, meditate on the mysteries of Wizard level, Caster Level, Spell Resistance, and Spell Penetration.
In this you will find great Wisdom.
RangerWickett
Legend
I will also find great snarkiness.
Coyote, yeah, what I meant was that I want warriors to make attack rolls to see if their attacks succeed, and spellcasters to make casting rolls to see if their spells succeed. No 'parry rolls' in melee, no 'saving throws' against spells.
Now, a few special cases to add extra layers of defense are fine. Damage reduction against melee and energy resistance against evocations is fine. And some things can be immune to certain attacks (constructs can't be charmed, ethereal creatures can't be hit by nonmagical weapons, etc.). But overall, I think the fighter mechanics are more intuitive than the spellcaster mechanics.
Then again, hrm. People will still have Reflex saves to avoid pit traps and such. Or would they? Would the pit have to make an attack roll against the target's reflex save?
Saves do make sense in some instances - poisons and traps, mostly - but for person vs. person, I think the attacker should make all the rolls.
This is sort of straying from the original topic, but I like the idea. Instead of needing a half dozen different defenses to protect from spells, you'd have one or spell resistance stats that let you know how well you're doing. Any thoughts?
Coyote, yeah, what I meant was that I want warriors to make attack rolls to see if their attacks succeed, and spellcasters to make casting rolls to see if their spells succeed. No 'parry rolls' in melee, no 'saving throws' against spells.
Now, a few special cases to add extra layers of defense are fine. Damage reduction against melee and energy resistance against evocations is fine. And some things can be immune to certain attacks (constructs can't be charmed, ethereal creatures can't be hit by nonmagical weapons, etc.). But overall, I think the fighter mechanics are more intuitive than the spellcaster mechanics.
Then again, hrm. People will still have Reflex saves to avoid pit traps and such. Or would they? Would the pit have to make an attack roll against the target's reflex save?
Saves do make sense in some instances - poisons and traps, mostly - but for person vs. person, I think the attacker should make all the rolls.
This is sort of straying from the original topic, but I like the idea. Instead of needing a half dozen different defenses to protect from spells, you'd have one or spell resistance stats that let you know how well you're doing. Any thoughts?
ErikSalaan
First Post
Successful BBEG Combat Example Thingie
OK, this is how my best BBEG scenario played out:
Party has 'brownie points' (for doing Out of Game stuff like bringing food or having a really good one-liner). Brownie points are basically action points.
Pre-end fight: Smallish dungeon with 3rd level Clerics of Venca, and some treasure they missed.
Party: All Level 6-7
1 Elven Wizard (Blow things up specialist)
1 Elven Sorceress (Was a Mindbender, but she didn't do mindbending right.)
1 Human Bard (Lots of Cure Potions, so she was a mock-cleric as well)
1 Half-Orc Barbarian (Meat + Strength of 22ish before Rage)
1 Human Rogue (crazy rogue)
1 Dwarf Ranger (Good beats and has a war-dog)
VS.
1 10/10 Wizard/Cleric of Venca BBEG
I pre-buffed him with Haste, Mirror Image, Blur, Stoneskin, Bless. He has a few instakill spells as well as several 'stall' spells.
1 Half Dragon (Black), 14 Ranger (Archer)
Just a beatstick and bodyguard to BBEG.
1 Human Druid (Evil)
Didn't do much...
Sooooo.
Early rounds: The BBEG targeted the mage first, knowing her charm spells could affect out the Bodyguard, so he casts an instakill on her first, and succeeds. She uses brownie point to stay alive instead of dying.
The Bodyguard fires his first arrows into Evoker Elf, and wounds him enough to kill him.
The Druid gets KOed by a massive beating by the fighters.
The party surrounds Bodyguard and pounds the crap out of him. Evoker and Sorceress get healed by Bard, but lose their initial rounds.
Mid Rounds: BBEG casts mass damage spells (anti-good, such as Unholy Blight) and Will Save spells vs. fighters while Bodyguard uses breath weapon on fighters. Dwarf ranger and rogue goes down during this. Half orc beats the Bodyguard. Bard goes around and helps the ranger and rogue while barbarian goes after BBEG. Many action/brownie points were used to not die.
Late rounds involve many Magic Missles by PCs and enough beats on the Stoneskinned, Blurred BBEG relying only on his Unholy Knife +3 because the fighters were too close for him to make a 5ft. adjustment for him to cast.
This was a very climatic end fight. The party barely got out of it alive, and used ALL their action/brownie points. The biggest, most important thing for BBEGs to do when fighting the last fight (to end the story) is to buff like crazy and have at least 2 bodyguards equal or better than the average party level to balance BBEGs skills out, at least with my EXP.
The party unit is much more resourceful than they seem, at least with my group. Having 5 or greater EL is a good idea for end battles...
Of course, my games are on crack, so take my advice with a grain of salt.
OK, this is how my best BBEG scenario played out:
Party has 'brownie points' (for doing Out of Game stuff like bringing food or having a really good one-liner). Brownie points are basically action points.
Pre-end fight: Smallish dungeon with 3rd level Clerics of Venca, and some treasure they missed.
Party: All Level 6-7
1 Elven Wizard (Blow things up specialist)
1 Elven Sorceress (Was a Mindbender, but she didn't do mindbending right.)
1 Human Bard (Lots of Cure Potions, so she was a mock-cleric as well)
1 Half-Orc Barbarian (Meat + Strength of 22ish before Rage)
1 Human Rogue (crazy rogue)
1 Dwarf Ranger (Good beats and has a war-dog)
VS.
1 10/10 Wizard/Cleric of Venca BBEG
I pre-buffed him with Haste, Mirror Image, Blur, Stoneskin, Bless. He has a few instakill spells as well as several 'stall' spells.
1 Half Dragon (Black), 14 Ranger (Archer)
Just a beatstick and bodyguard to BBEG.
1 Human Druid (Evil)
Didn't do much...
Sooooo.
Early rounds: The BBEG targeted the mage first, knowing her charm spells could affect out the Bodyguard, so he casts an instakill on her first, and succeeds. She uses brownie point to stay alive instead of dying.
The Bodyguard fires his first arrows into Evoker Elf, and wounds him enough to kill him.
The Druid gets KOed by a massive beating by the fighters.
The party surrounds Bodyguard and pounds the crap out of him. Evoker and Sorceress get healed by Bard, but lose their initial rounds.
Mid Rounds: BBEG casts mass damage spells (anti-good, such as Unholy Blight) and Will Save spells vs. fighters while Bodyguard uses breath weapon on fighters. Dwarf ranger and rogue goes down during this. Half orc beats the Bodyguard. Bard goes around and helps the ranger and rogue while barbarian goes after BBEG. Many action/brownie points were used to not die.
Late rounds involve many Magic Missles by PCs and enough beats on the Stoneskinned, Blurred BBEG relying only on his Unholy Knife +3 because the fighters were too close for him to make a 5ft. adjustment for him to cast.
This was a very climatic end fight. The party barely got out of it alive, and used ALL their action/brownie points. The biggest, most important thing for BBEGs to do when fighting the last fight (to end the story) is to buff like crazy and have at least 2 bodyguards equal or better than the average party level to balance BBEGs skills out, at least with my EXP.
The party unit is much more resourceful than they seem, at least with my group. Having 5 or greater EL is a good idea for end battles...
Of course, my games are on crack, so take my advice with a grain of salt.
kigmatzomat
Legend
RangerWickett said:
Didn't the warrior roll a 2 on the first save and a 3 on the second? Guessing the DC to be around 20 (10+4th level spell + 6 stat/feats), this character had a 3% chance of being killed (2/20 x 6/20 = 0.03). Are you *really* that upset over an attack that had a 3% chance of success?
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