Giving fighters something to do.

[RangerWickett]

I dunno. I just feel that spellcasters get to mess with reality enough as is. They don't also need to have lots of offensive combat ability.

The main villain of the campaign is going to be a 'puzzle battle,' where they have to figure out the trick to beating him. He'll have bound himself to the plane of time, and if they just kill him, bye bye Time.

I recall a game of Pkitty's where a villainous mage, Nulloc Toadbringer, turned the whole party into toads. Then the 16th level toad monk kicked his butt. Maybe it could be fixed by just letting spellcasters still cast spells in different forms, maybe with some sort of Concentration check?

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I dunno. I just feel that spellcasters get to mess with reality enough as is. They don't also need to have lots of offensive combat ability.

I don't quite understand this kind of thinking. In the games I've played, spells are mostly for combat. There are a few exceptions, but with the 3.5 spell duration nerfs, few remain. Outside of combat, the bard, paladin, and rogue are going to take the lead. Spellcasters shine in combat, just like the melee brutes.

And in the game I currently play in (just shy of 8th-level), the fighter with the greataxe has insta-killed at least half a dozen baddies so far. I don't really see why the wizard shouldn't start getting the chance to do the same. That's what insta-kill spells are, as I said before. They're the spellcasters' equivalent of a critical hit. Just like a crit, they need confirmation (a failed saving throw). And just like a crit, if confirmed, chances are that baddie is in serious trouble.

I recall a game of Pkitty's where a villainous mage, Nulloc Toadbringer, turned the whole party into toads. Then the 16th level toad monk kicked his butt.

I remember Nulloc, though I seem to remember some of the party resisting, and thus defeating him. Not him being defeated by the monk in toad-form. It's been a while though, perhaps you're correct.

Maybe it could be fixed by just letting spellcasters still cast spells in different forms, maybe with some sort of Concentration check?

This quote seems to deal specifically with polymorph effects. To be honest, I think that's what Contingency is for. And various other feats/abilities. But I suppose you could always allow non-druids to take Natural Spell, as a precaution for those times they've been turned into fluffy bunny rabbits.

 

[RangerWickett]

Nulloc's beatage was mild hyperbole, yes.

I was discussing with a friend of mine how to defend people from danger. He proposed that the President is probably taught some basic defensive martial arts. Y'know, so in case the Prime Minister of Quebec is actually a brainwashed black belt in karate, and he tries to attack the president after shaking his hand. All the president needs to do is keep from getting killed for about a second, and then the attacker will have a dozen guys shooting him or grappling him.

So maybe high-level guys just need lots of very vigilant henchmen.

I don't mind spellcasters dealing damage to a large area of effect, and I certainly don't mind them killing mooks and flunkies. But I think the damage dice should be toned down just a little. So a fireball might deal 3d6 at 5th level. To balance this out, the mage could cast a lot more fireballs per day. I pretty much just want to tone down the necessity of super-powerful spells.

Right now a 13th level wizard only gets 1 7th level spell, so he'd better use it to kill someone tough. But if the wizard got to cast unlimited 4th level spells, and could only use a 5th level spell if he spent two full rounds concentrating on it, that would fit my style better.

 

[Frostmarrow]

It's about the hitpoints. You all know the rationale for hitpoints; it's a mix of stamina, luck, experience, guts, etc. Still, it's possible to bypass all hitpoints with the right spell.

However, it isn't possible to bypass all the hitpoints with a swift blow to the head. You still need to wound your opponent before it's a good idea to use non-lethal force.

In my view fear should do hp damage just like blades and arrows. Take a basilisk for instance. It's gaze should do hp damage and when and if the PC is reduced to 0 hp he should turn to stone. Not at first glance.

 

[shilsen]

I dunno. I just feel that spellcasters get to mess with reality enough as is. They don't also need to have lots of offensive combat ability.

Do the others in your group share this opinion?

 

[Elrik_DarkFury]

Tone down magic more?I don't know but 3.5 pretty much did that and arcane spellcasters are in trouble keeping pace with the other classes.

I can't understand it.Do you want people playing wizards or not?

Try protect BBEG more.That wizard should had a contingency just in case things went bad,and the fighter should had been mind blanked as the probabilities to be the target of a mind-affecting spell are considerably hight.
The DC of spells cast are not that hight any more and a well prepared villain can easily resist them.

I dunno. I just feel that spellcasters get to mess with reality enough as is. They don't also need to have lots of offensive combat ability.

Spellcasters had their spells nerfed,and the duracion of protective ones is proportionaly diminished.So what is left for them to do,just buff the fighters?


Also, if you throw some encounters before the final battle the efficiency of your spellcasters will be reduced.They may kill someone in the final battle (if they keep the higher level spells for the final hour) but then they will have to fight with magic missiles.


Magic is powerful and beautiful and unpredictable , and it is so hard to balance everything.
However i think that banning a great deal of spells or turning everything into damage dealing effects is not the sollution (you know not how much i hate 3.5 ed for what they turned disintergrate into) .
Do you know how many damaging spells you need to kill just one tough monster of CL 7 Hill giant (102 hp)?

Ok, you had a misfortune in this combat but you now know the strength of your party and the next time you'll be more prepared to face your players tricks by preparing decent villains and challenges.

Try and use instant kill effects on your players' characters.You'll see that the first time may be harsh for them but the second one will be much more easier.
They care for themselves and they don't want to die?
-->they find means to protect themselves whether by casting pretective spells or be getting equiped with protecting items.

Heck, use same protections for your villains and problem mostly solved.
I know it adds some complexity but its ok with me.

Anyway,good luck with your experienced players (they must be),and know that experienced players are always harder to control but it is also more rewarding and fun to DM them.

___________________
The Wizard

 

[hong]

I banned phantasmal killer and a squillion other instakills besides. To make up for this, I reduced Quicken Spell to +2 spell levels (now +3 after my players revolted), and allowed sorcs and bards to use it. Nothing wrong with a spellcaster who can dish it out (20d6 from two fireballs each round is a lot of mojo), but it should ideally require more than one spell to do it, and be a more graduated process than save-or-die.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Another option would be to give your BBEGS good saving throws. Great Fortitude, Iron Will, levels in Blackguard or whatever.

 

[Nellisir]

An amusing anecdote -- an NPC cast phantasmal killer on one of the PCs, a bridge troll barbarian/rogue. The bridge troll failed his first save, and saw the thing he feared the most reaching towards him. Now, bridge trolls aren't ordinarily very bold, but this PC was obviously no ordinary troldfolk, and he wasn't afraid of anything. The worst thing around, in his mind, was himself.

We all had a good laugh as the character, succeeding on his second save, but obviously terrified and confused, announced to the rest of the group that he'd just touched himself.

Cheers
Nell.

 

[RangerWickett]

Wizards can teleport, see things far away, charm people to be their allies, suck the life from people to power themselves, animate the dead as warriors, walk through fire unscathed, call forth extraplanar beasts to do their bidding, turn the darkness of night to the brightness of day and vice versa, completely alter their shape, become invisible, and yes, hurl gouts of fire from their hands.

If I told you you could do all that, wouldn't you be much happier than if I said, "You can tear things to pieces with a sword"? Not all magic should be combat-oriented in my mind, and thankfully the majority of it isn't. I think that spellcasters get enough non-combat powers that in combat they shouldn't be able to outpace the warriors.