Giving fighters something to do.

[arwink]

Two Words: Feng Shui.

Rising cinematic combat, balanced options for wizards, characters that are equally useful no matter what they're background. You can run down the list and check them off one by one.

 

[LostSoul]

Instead, what if 'flesh to stone' damaged your Dex, with the effect that you were partially turning to stone - and you became a statue when it hit 0? How about Disintegrate doing Con damage? Phantasmal Killer draining your Wis? etc, etc

I quite like that idea.


The way I see it... wizards don't have to be powerful in combat. They should never end up in combat. If they see someone who could possibly be a threat to them - teleport away. Or dimension door. They should keep up on what's coming after them with a network of hypnotized spies, scry on possible threats, go to the outer planes for answers... etc.

All to make sure that some guy with a pointy piece of metal can't stick him, or some wizard can't turn him into a guppy.

 

[PeterDonis]

...People of a certain class should be particularly well-suited to taking out opponents of the same class, if you assume a default build of that class. So fighters are best for dealing with fighters, spellcasters with spellcasters...Everyone should be able to deal damage to everyone else in a pinch, but different classes would have different specialties. Fighters should be good at taking care of foes of great physical might, like huge monsters with lots of hit points...Mages should be good against groups of weaker foes, and should be useful at removing defenses of singular foes.

Umm...isn't this contradictory? First you say that each class should be suited to taking out opponents of the same class; then you say mages should be good against groups of weaker foes? So who takes out the enemy mages? Who takes out the BBEG if he's a high-level wizard? He's not a "huge monster with lots of hit points", so the fighter shouldn't be the best one to take him out, by the logic of your first point.

I agree with your idea that "defeating a foe that is of the same power level as you or higher should be an exercise in degrees." The way you do that with save or die spells is layered defenses: death ward, cloaks of protection, contingencies, etc. So the first power word kill that the party's wizard casts at the BBEG is countered by one of the defenses--then the good guys have to figure out how to circumvent or take down those defenses one by one. The prismatic sphere spell is the gold-plated version of this idea. That kind of campaign might not be to your taste--if so, you should probably outlaw save or die spells altogether. But you *can* deal with them within the rules.

 

[PeterDonis]

The way I see it... wizards don't have to be powerful in combat. They should never end up in combat. If they see someone who could possibly be a threat to them - teleport away. Or dimension door...

Not much of a life for a self-respecting adventurer.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

They haven't become a problem in my games, probably because of an unspoken MAD relationship between me and my players, but if they did I would house rule them somehow.

We have the exact same thing. I rarely if ever use instant kill spells against players and they know that if they were to use them then so would I. Interestingly enough, they kinda realize they have a greater attachment to their PCs than I have to the latest NPC that they've run into...

 

[Elrik_DarkFury]

Not much of a life for a self-respecting adventurer.

Heh!


___________________
The Wizard

 

[kigmatzomat]

I've played mages and sorcerors at various levels. Generally, casters become less effective in combat as the levels go up due to the high saves and resistances of the opponents. You need those save or dies simply because the 1/20 odds of success beat throwing 20 fireballs. Fighters, on the otherhand, are this constant litany of pain inflicted upon opponents.

SoD spells are not useful in all cases; being ineffective vs constructs, undead, and certain other creatures depending on the spell. Excluding disintigrate, SoDs don't knock down walls or clear forests. A mage isn't going to have more than a few of those in his repetoire and a sorceror who's learned them has done so at a cost.

IMC we haven't used SoDs simply because of setting-specific circumstances. Wait, not true, I did try Finger of Death on the fighter but he never realized he was being targeted by SoD and the party casters were blinded by fog. IMO charm/dominates cast on the fighter are worse than SoDs because they move the fighter to the BBEGs side of the table.

I don't fear SoDs as a DM; opponents are just as susceptible to instant kills from the sniper/archer's criticals. Instead I plan on SoDs. Smart casters work defensively, throwing up lots of chaff via minions or summons and using their high mobility to best advantage. I'm fond of having Imp Invis casters flying high above the range of See Invis and cast spells with no visual component. To be really fun, I toss out a few Silenced tanglefoot bags or just a few ghost sounds to obscure verbal components.
Consider using polymorph magic to swap with one of the minions; the lich-goblin falls readily but the goblin-lich keeps casting from the secret passageways.

Yes, that requires the BBEG to be prepared. If the party catches my BBEG by surprise, they deserve to stomp him quickly. They outsmarted me and get their just rewards. If they don't catch me by surprise then why oh why would he not be prepared? I run big bad evil guys, not big dumb evil guys.

 

[JackGiantkiller]

Unfortunately for drama, many of us have players who go for the kill quick...and of course, in RL, fights are over in seconds if opponents are in melee or don't have cover. With cover, you don't have a fight, you have a stand-off, and those can last days.

Ranger Wickett, you built the guy with a weakness "118 year-old withered piece of flesh" too scared to be a lich....he died of a heart attack when the Phantasmal Killer hit him. Perfectly reasonable. Scare a low Con old person, they die. Did it to yourself, there.

 

[GrayIguana]

What I'm seeing in my current campaign at present (11th level) is that the wizards are not even able to keep up with the warriors in combat, who can regularly do 50+ points of damage on a full attack. The wizard is lucky to get as much as 30-40 points damage against an enemy with his spells.

I'm seeing this a lot too. Our wizard can't come close to dealing out the damage that the tanks do. While I'm not the biggest fan of insta-kill spells either, I can't bring myself to limit my player's spell choices any more.

 

[RangerWickett]

Actually, the phantasmal killer hit the strapping and healthy mysterious one-armed swordsman monk with a +13 Fort save and a +17 Will save. The aged wizard fell to a baleful polymorph (dispelled by his bodyguard) which kept him from doing anything useful, followed up almost immediately by a greater dispelling from the same mage, then a flame strike from a PC cleric. I'm not so miffed about the mage as I am about the warrior.