Giving fighters something to do.

[JackGiantkiller]

Actually, I see his point. There's no way that particular character should have failed those saves. It's not in character, it doesn't fit the fight...I'd have fudged it. But then I cheat like mad to make sure things feel right.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Can players do that, too, in your campaigns, JGK?

Can I say, "You know, there's no way I would have failed that save / missed that attack / not been able to answer that riddle?" and just fudge it?

Or are such things the sole province of the DM?

For some reason, I'm reminded of the scene from The Gamers where the Thief player "rewinds" the action multiple times, revising his character's actions in each one. "No, what I *meant* to say was that, as a Master Thief, my character would crawl down the hallway on his hands and knees, checking every square inch of the floor for traps."

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Actually, I see his point. There's no way that particular character should have failed those saves.

Well, there's a 3% way that particular character should have failed those saves.

Personally, I think that DMs who fudge this fail to recognize that sometimes, the easy win is fun. Out of 100 climactic battles, 3 of them will be ended by the insta-kill spell. A year later, which battles do you think your players are going to remember?

I played a rogue in a previous campaign who, insanely, wonderfully, managed to Turn a lich. The DM had meant it to be an incredibly tough fight, but my rogue rolled a 20 and managed to Turn. I loved that fight!

It shouldn't be easy to insta-kill the BBEG, but just like the fighter rolling back to back crits, it should be possible. And when it does happen, let the players enjoy it. There's always another BBEG waiting in the wings, and 97 out of 100 of them aren't going to be insta-killed.

It's not in character, it doesn't fit the fight...

Fit the fight? That's the thing about D&D. The randomness of attack rolls means sometimes battles that should be tough are easy, and battles that should be easy are tough. Same campaign, our party ran into a group of vampire spawn that the DM thought would be a complete cakewalk. Instead, a streak of bad rolling resulted in a very deadly fight. Should we players have fudged our rolls, because whiffing that many times against an inferior foe wasn't "in character" and didn't "fit the fight"? Not at all. Sometimes the powerhouses go down easy, sometimes the wilting daisies last forever in the thick of combat. That's a part of what makes D&D so fun. Or at least, for us it does.

But then I cheat like mad to make sure things feel right.

This would ruin things for me as a player, but obviously your players must enjoy it, so more power to you.

 

[RangerWickett]

Didn't the warrior roll a 2 on the first save and a 3 on the second? Guessing the DC to be around 20 (10+4th level spell + 6 stat/feats), this character had a 3% chance of being killed (2/20 x 6/20 = 0.03). Are you *really* that upset over an attack that had a 3% chance of success?

Actually the DC was 23 = 10 +4th level +8 from a 27 ability score, and +1 from Spellcasting Prodigy. The character is a 90 year old wizard with a natural Intelligence of 23 (18 +3 from age, +2 from leveling), a +4 Intelligence item, and Spellcasting Prodigy.

Her stats are: Str 4, Dex 6, Con 10, Int 27, Wis 17, Cha 11. She rides around on a broom of flying to keep me from easily killing her.

 

[RangerWickett]

Anyhoo, I'm sure I'll be fine. I just needed to vent a bit.

For six days.

Tomorrow I'll ask the group how they feel about having insta-kills just knock out all your HP, and leave you with WP.

Hrm. I need to look at Feng Shui.

 

[shilsen]

Personally, I think that DMs who fudge this fail to recognize that sometimes, the easy win is fun. Out of 100 climactic battles, 3 of them will be ended by the insta-kill spell. A year later, which battles do you think your players are going to remember?

A couple years ago we played through RttToEE, with god knows how many combat encounters over the course of the entire thing. There were fights where the PCs made it through by the skin of their teeth and combats which lasted rounds and rounds of tense action. But whenever anybody discusses combat in that campaign, the first one anybody remembers fondly (including the DM) is the time when the wizard disintegrated a huge dragon in the first round of combat because it rolled a 2 on its save (needed a 3 to make it).

 

[beaver1024]

Actually the DC was 23 = 10 +4th level +8 from a 27 ability score, and +1 from Spellcasting Prodigy. The character is a 90 year old wizard with a natural Intelligence of 23 (18 +3 from age, +2 from leveling), a +4 Intelligence item, and Spellcasting Prodigy.

Her stats are: Str 4, Dex 6, Con 10, Int 27, Wis 17, Cha 11. She rides around on a broom of flying to keep me from easily killing her.

What version of DnD are you playing? Are you aware that Spellcasting Prodigy has been nerfed?

Might I complement your player on a fine job of mix/maxing an otherwise substandard class.

 

[hong]

A couple years ago we played through RttToEE, with god knows how many combat encounters over the course of the entire thing. There were fights where the PCs made it through by the skin of their teeth and combats which lasted rounds and rounds of tense action. But whenever anybody discusses combat in that campaign, the first one anybody remembers fondly (including the DM) is the time when the wizard disintegrated a huge dragon in the first round of combat because it rolled a 2 on its save (needed a 3 to make it).

Hmm. We (or at least the other guys in my group; I was away at the time) too played through the RttToEE. One fight that is remembered is the time when the wiz disintegrated Imix in the first round. The guy playing the wizard felt it was a real anticlimax, so much so that he consciously steered away from using instakills (except as a last resort) for the remainder of the campaign. AFAIK most of us felt pretty much the same.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Actually the DC was 23 = 10 +4th level +8 from a 27 ability score, and +1 from Spellcasting Prodigy.

5/20 x 11/20 = 13% chance of success. Still not exactly probable.

Her stats are: Str 4, Dex 6, Con 10, Int 27, Wis 17, Cha 11. She rides around on a broom of flying to keep me from easily killing her.

Sounds like a prime candidate for some AE spells, likely after a quickened dispel magic targeting her directly so it blows through her broom & defenses. That or a Ray of Enfeeblement, my favorite mage killer. It's amazing how many mages end up paralyzed with a strength of 0.....

 

[The_Gneech]

RangerWickett: You might want to try the Conan d20 game, where sorcerers (i.e., "Scholars") are primarily utility characters (in the party) or eeeeeeeeevil villains. Magic, while rare by D&D standards, is still present and quite powerful.

The only real downside is that there aren't many modules for it.

-The Gneech