Giving the monk more choices: the Mystic, version 1.6 -- post #41

[fuindordm]

Yeah, but it is prettier if they all have their own ranking.

True.

Do you mean DR/lawful or DR/chaotic? Normally creatures that are evil have DR/good and vice versa; but giving lawful mystics DR/lawful would be an interesting design choice. DR of some kind seems appropriate: IIRC there is a variant monk in Unearthed Arcana that has DR like a barbarian.

I meant lawful... you're right about how it's usually done in the MM books, but I always thought that was sorta funny that demons and angels fighting each other should have an easier time inflicting damage than demons fighting demons. Especially since it seems to violate the guideline that if you have DR of a certain kind then you can also bypass that DR. Doesn't it make more sense for evil creatures to be resistant to evil attacks? Anyway, I don't really care how the DR is bypassed, and as you say maybe it's better just to leave it as the UA options for barbarians.

I am not sure that we want *all* mystics to be fast moving; the fact that they are all slow fallers is bad enough... But it makes sense that slow fall could also apply to balance and jump checks. The mystic force that holds you up when you are falling would stop you from losing your balance, and would keep you in the air long enough to jump further.

Then since the current fast movement power adds to the slow fall distance, it would also add to the balance and jump checks. The reference to the DC of walking on water etc. could be worked into the description of the slow fall power, since it would be the base power. An abbreviated form of cloud dancing could become another (probably fairly low ranked power):

My own preference would be for neither slow fall nor fast movement to be part of the core progression. However, since CRGreathouse expressed a preference to keep slow fall in, it occurred to me that the fast move and water walking fall in the same theme, and happen to involve bonuses of the same magnitude. From there and with the previous suggestions on a mechanic for water walking it was a short step to unify them into a single power.

Note that in my version, before you take the Cloud Dancing ability you can only barely walk on water reliably. Even at 20th level you're at +50 to the roll (for your speed bonus), +33 (max ranks, and taking 10 if you have the Skill Mastery ability in Balance) for 83, so you need additional help from skill-boosting items and/or a very high dex to manage it. Cloud Dancing adds your base speed to the equation and removes penalties for moving quickly, making this sort of thing possible around 10th level (60' speed + 23 taking 10) with a bit of magical help, or routine at 14th level. Given that it should probably have a rank in the mid-teens.

The Run on Water and Wuxia powers would be then be redundant.

agreed.

As for condensing the list of powers... well, improved empty body could be what happens if you take empty body twice. The two are close enough together on the table that you wouldn't have to add any pre-requisites. Something like this:

This is another good way to condense the list, you're right.

I don't think that a mystic would need to take the power more than twice, but if a power is stackable it should be able to be taken an unlimited number of times.

I don't agree with this, however. Take the increased speed as an example. As a low-level power on the list, as things stand a mystic could buy it up to an extremely high value at early levels, which doens't strike me as a good thing. I think the mystic powers should improve no more than 2 or 3 times by taking them more than once, as it's easier to control its effects on the game.

What else could be done to shorten the list? Maybe fold wholeness of body into the asceticism power. It's kinda early on the list, but compared with the paladin's laying on of hands it is not too powerful.

[edit]Oh- the DR could be added to the options of the Resistance power. With the #8 power (wholeness of power) combined with asceticism, that leaves a space for cloud dancing. #14 (walk on water) is out, #26 (improved empty body) is folded into #24... we could end up with 27 powers. And 3 * 3 * 3 is a pretty number. [/edit]

I don't think that asceticism and healing oneself are linked thematically, but the former is probably a throwaway power anyway that doesn't give enough in-game benefit to be attractive. Maybe it's another candidate for the contemplative path.

Ben

 

[CRGreathouse]

Wow great work! I think I'm going to have Mystics in my next campaign!

Thanks, I'm glad you like it. As you can see from this thread I get my ideas from many people and many places.

A foolish mystic casting spells is a bit incongruous, but my suggestion about spell-like abilities adds as many peculiarities as it eliminates. I would not be unhappy if the priest path remained as it is.

Wisdom will always be a good ability for the mystic, so this only gives power to 'weak' mystics. This is good for game balance (why make a weak character weaker?) and gives people with unusual character ideas more flexability. Of course, there's precious little chance a mystic will be truly foolish -- they'll more likely have, say, 14 Wis and a 5th-level spell.

I like that this makes mystic spellcasting different from cleric spellcasting.

I like that perform is a mystic skill; but my dislike of bardic music being a mystic power is greater. I am glad you are not including a bardic path.

I like this version of spiritual journey, and I think you've nailed focused mind. Asceticism and mind over body both fit admirably the theme of the class. But I wonder if mind over body might not be too high a level? I say that, alas, without knowing what a better ordering of powers would be.

Agreed on all points.

Now, I infer you weren't overly impressed by the "How do I run on water?" thread I linked to above. Let's see if I can clean up a bit what I posted there.... How about the following?

I like the discussion on the thread, but it made me realize that the underlying mechanics need to be changed before we can write proper mechanics for the mystic ability.

There should be a way for fast nonmystics without many ranks in Balance (ranks < 10) and not too high a Dex (Dex < 20) to walk on water without particularly special training. This means the core Balance check should be changed to accomodate higher speeds as an inherent bonus (instead of a bonus from the class), as well as to allow for it in unusual circumstances where width as an issue as well.

Since I don't forsee many players doing this in any case, and since the mechanics will be complicated in all cases, I decided to leave the ability to work however and deal with it properly when/if a player shows interest. Is this the wrong way? Yes.

Your rules look good and are about the best I could see under the current rules (ie without changing the underlying Balance rules). I applaud your effort.

What about combining the Slow Fall with the Water Walking?

Ever watch Remo Williams: the Adventure Begins? As he progresses in the Art of Sinanju, he runs across sand without leaving tracks, over wet cement without sinking and his master Chiun is able to run across water while the tv pilot had Remo walking down the stream from a firehose. I could've sworn Chiun told him it had to be just right: not enough and he'll fall but too much and the pressure will push him back.

Anyways, Slow Fall works when the monk makes himself lighter or whatever handwaving reason you give. Eventually the monk would be able to run across sand without leaving tracks, over quicksand without sinking and eventually water til even cloud walking is possible.

That's an interesting thought.

(pun removed)

My eyes, my eyes!

Mystic Motion:

Starting at 2nd level, the mystic learns to use their innate life energy (ki) to enhance their athletic abilities. They gain a +10 bonus to her base movment rate, to her balance and jump skills, and can treat a fall as if it were 10' shorter as long as a wall is within arm's reach that she can use to slow her fall.

At 6th level, the bonus to her speed and skills increases to +20 and she can ignore the first 20' of a fall.

At 10th level, the mystic begins to sense the world's life energies as well, and can use the currents of ki in nature to enchance her motion; the bonus to speed and skills increases to +30, but any bonus in excess of +20 is treated as a supernatural ability rather than an extraordinary ability. She can ignore the first 30' of a fall, and no longer needs a wall to slow herself.

At 14th level, the bonuses and safe falling distance increase to 40, and at 18th level to 50.

I like the mechanics here a lot, but I'm trying for a more flexible class. This would work really well for a monk rewrite, though, and I'll see what I can use from it for mine.

Cloud Dancing

The mystic takes no penalties to balance checks for movement, and makes all jump checks as though they had a running start. In addition, they add their full movement rate (not just the bonus) to balance and jump checks at all times. This may allow them to walk, run or stand on water and fragile branches (DC 90), or clouds (DC 120), or at epic levels even thin air (DC 150), supported by nothing but the shifting currents of ki.

Wow, that's quite an ability. It does seem unusual that it would give such large bonuses, even to slow characters -- a 20' movement rate (however that would be achieved) would still give +20, comparable to the jump spell....

Still, I think the underlying mechanics for Balance need to be changed. Walking on water (or quicksand, or whatever) should be easier when you're fast, not just for mystics.

<0: additional path or bonus feat.

The class abilities table looks like this:

1: paths, mystic power
2: mystic motion (+10)
3: mystic power
4: still mind, bonus feat
5: mystic power
6: mystic motion (+20)
7: mystic power
8: purity of body, bonus feat
9: mystic power
10: mystic motion (+30)
11: mystic power
12: heart of fire, bonus feat
13: mystic power
14: mystic motion (+40)
15: mystic power
16: timeless body, bonus feat
17: mystic power
18: mystic motion (+50)
19: mystic power
20: perfect self

4 bonus feats and 10 mystic powers... I'll have to think about that. It's hard to talk about balance without actual playtesting, but at a glance it seems powerful. (I know, mine has 20 powers, but fewer inherent abilities and it can take a max of 10, not 14, feats.)

The highest-rated power, spiritual journey, would have a rank of 28--you could get it at 19th level for
your last mystic power if your Wis is 26. That could happen if you started with a 16, boosted it to
a 20 as you leveled, and accrued aging bonuses through the venerable category.

Don't forget enhancement bonuses, inherent bonuses, and two paths that boost effective Wisdom. 18 + 3 (leveling) + 6 (amulet) + 8 (savant) + 4 (contemplative) +1 (inherent) = 40 --> +15 bonus, giving a 12th-level mystic the abiity to choose from the whole list. Of course this is an extreme example....

Other comments: Wholeness of Body and Healing Talent could be condensed into a single mystic ability that can be taken twice, since they have almost the same Wis+Lev requirement.

Right now Healing Talent requires Wholeness of Body, the idea being that inner balance must come before... blah blah blah. I might make it into one ability if I need room, but I want to leave that aspect in.

I like Forceful Fists a lot, but perhaps it should be restricted to the Warrior path?

If you look at the feats at the top of this thread you'll see that the Warrior path has its own advantages, beyond the +6 (!) to Fort saves. I don't think we need to encourage it more.

Preternatural sense might make a nice bonus power for the contemplative path.

I don't really want to give paths mystic powers (since powers can choose paths) and I'd hate to force warrior-monks to take a Contemplative path. I'm OK with the idea that most PCs will avoid that path.

I still think Lorekeeper and Scholar are redundant. You already have Free Spirit for giving a choice of class skills.

I'd like to have them both, though, if it can be managed. I agree that the bonus class skills are overused -- do you have a different idea of something I can add to the path to make it better/more interesting? I'd like to keep it viable, althouhg (as above) it could be better for NPCs than PCs if need be.

Damage reduction 2/lawful, that can be taken multiple times, could also be a fun power.

It seemed bland to me, so I didn't include it. It's probably OK in power, as would be DR 2/chaotic.

Finally, it's perfectly all right for more than one power to share the same ranking.

Yeah, but it is prettier if they all have their own ranking.

That's the issue on the nose.

The contemplative gives a +4 to your effective wisdom for the purpose of choosing bonus powers. (It used to be +8, but CRGreathouse toned it down a bit)

Not at all -- you're thinking of the savant, which is still at +8. (It just doesn't do anything else.)

I am not sure that we want *all* mystics to be fast moving; the fact that they are all slow fallers is bad enough... But it makes sense that slow fall could also apply to balance and jump checks. The mystic force that holds you up when you are falling would stop you from losing your balance, and would keep you in the air long enough to jump further.

Then since the current fast movement power adds to the slow fall distance, it would also add to the balance and jump checks. The reference to the DC of walking on water etc. could be worked into the description of the slow fall power, since it would be the base power. An abbreviated form of cloud dancing could become another (probably fairly low ranked power):



The Run on Water and Wuxia powers would be then be redundant.

Good thoughts.

As for condensing the list of powers... well, improved empty body could be what happens if you take empty body twice. The two are close enough together on the table that you wouldn't have to add any pre-requisites.

I thought about doing that. It all depends on how pressing our need for space is.

I don't think that a mystic would need to take the power more than twice, but if a power is stackable it should be able to be taken an unlimited number of times.

What else could be done to shorten the list? Maybe fold wholeness of body into the asceticism power. It's kinda early on the list, but compared with the paladin's laying on of hands it is not too powerful.

I don't want to give out the paladin power, as both a personal preference and as a balance concern (if it's as early an ability as it is now).

[edit]Oh- the DR could be added to the options of the Resistance power. With the #8 power (wholeness of power) combined with asceticism, that leaves a space for cloud dancing. #14 (walk on water) is out, #26 (improved empty body) is folded into #24... we could end up with 27 powers. And 3 * 3 * 3 is a pretty number. [/edit]

27 is a really nice number, and it has major numerological significance in my world, but I don't think I can do that -- I have too many more ideas bouncing arounbd in my head, and I'd like to add really high-numbered abilities that make these viable choices at epic levels.

My own preference would be for neither slow fall nor fast movement to be part of the core progression. However, since CRGreathouse expressed a preference to keep slow fall in, it occurred to me that the fast move and water walking fall in the same theme, and happen to involve bonuses of the same magnitude.

Moi? I'd love to get rid of slow fall as a built-in ability, I just don't think it's powrful enough.

Note that in my version, before you take the Cloud Dancing ability you can only barely walk on water reliably. Even at 20th level you're at +50 to the roll (for your speed bonus), +33 (max ranks, and taking 10 if you have the Skill Mastery ability in Balance) for 83, so you need additional help from skill-boosting items and/or a very high dex to manage it. Cloud Dancing adds your base speed to the equation and removes penalties for moving quickly, making this sort of thing possible around 10th level (60' speed + 23 taking 10) with a bit of magical help, or routine at 14th level. Given that it should probably have a rank in the mid-teens.

Yeah, your ability makes it quite reliable. It's cool.

I don't agree with this, however. Take the increased speed as an example. As a low-level power on the list, as things stand a mystic could buy it up to an extremely high value at early levels, which doens't strike me as a good thing. I think the mystic powers should improve no more than 2 or 3 times by taking them more than once, as it's easier to control its effects on the game.

I like them to be unlimited when possible, just in case. Consider what you're giving up to take increased speed more than thrice!

I don't think that asceticism and healing oneself are linked thematically, but the former is probably a throwaway power anyway that doesn't give enough in-game benefit to be attractive. Maybe it's another candidate for the contemplative path.

Yep, I keep thinking about this.

 

[KingOfChaos]

*pokes CR*

You're alive?

 

[CRGreathouse]

*pokes CR*

You're alive?

I might say the same to you! I see new life in the Realms of Evil... are you a part of this?

What do you think of my class?

 

[fuindordm]

Regarding the Lorekeeper/Scholar split--you say you want to keep them separate, but I still don't understand the distinction between them. Can you elaborate on the two different roles? Then maybe I'd have more ideas on abilities to give them...

Ben

 

[CRGreathouse]

Regarding the Lorekeeper/Scholar split--you say you want to keep them separate, but I still don't understand the distinction between them. Can you elaborate on the two different roles? Then maybe I'd have more ideas on abilities to give them...

Ben

The scholar is a traditional ivory-tower learner, picking up information gleaned from records, scrolls, codices, and such. She may be a the keeper of a church's library, or a monk learning Things That Were Not Meant To Be Known from ancient crypts and hidden tomes. Scholars are traditionally intelligent (mechanically represented by giving them Knowledge skills and Spellcraft, both Int-based).

The lorekeeeper is a more social creature. He more frequently learns from oral tradition than from research or reading, as his target subjects are different -- he's streetwise more than knowledgeable. They're versatile, though, and (should) make good 'adventurers'. Not traditionally intelligent, but perhaps charismatic.

 

[Cheiromancer]

So, has the mystic finished being polished, yet?

I'm curious to see what the final details are.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Bump.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Cheiromancer, thank you for your patience. Here's my latest version -- really what the last version was trying to be, with fixes and a few new abilities. Note that I rolled Improved Empty Body into Empty Body to save space.

I also ended up removing the contemplative path; I really want to keep it in there, but until I have a good idea for powers I should really drop it.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Cheiromancer, thank you for your patience.

I'm glad you hadn't just let this project fall by the wayside!

Domain: A mystic must be on the priest path and be an exclusive worshipper of a deity to select this power. She chooses one of her deity's domains, gaining its granted power. If she has taken a magical talent, she can prepare spells from that domain as well as from the cleric list.

Since the priest path grants spellcasting ability, there is no need for "if she has taken a magical talent." A good thing, since as far as I can see "magical talent" is not otherwise described in the document.

Focused Mind (Ex): Once per day as a standard action the mystic can harden her mind against influence. The next time she resists a spell or ability allowing a Will save she gains a bonus equal to 5 + one-half her class level on the save. This ability lasts for 1 hour or until used. A mystic must be lawful to choose this power.

I like the fact that now a friendly cure light wounds won't trigger (and use up) a use of focused mind. Though I still think it should be the mystic's option whether she calls upon this extraordinary resistance or not. If she thinks that an effect can be resisted without focused mind she should be able to try. Though she better be sure she can do it; if she fails the save against a supposedly "easy" effect, that day's use of focused mind should be used up. You can't remain focused if you roll a 1 against some low-level sorcerer's charm person.

Harness Destructive Energies (Sp): Once per day as a standard action, the mystic can tap into and release fell energies used against her. If in the past round she was targeted with a negative energy effect or a death effect she was not immune to but saved against the effect, she can use it herself as a standard action...

I think the sentence works better without those two words.

Healing Talent (Su): A mystic must select wholeness of body before this power...

It would be interesting, wouldn't it, if a character could heal others, but not herself? Why not drop the pre-requisite?