Giving the monk more choices: the Mystic, version 1.6 -- post #41

[CRGreathouse]

I like the mechanics for Deep Trance and Walking on Water.

I'm actually fairly proud of the deep trance, but walking on water still leaves me unsatisfied. Maybe it can grant a flat or sliding bonus and change the movement penalties to bonuses -- that would solve a few problems, yes?

Rather than the contemplative path, why not have an artist path that grants the bardic music chain for real, usable on others? This would give them some use for having Perform as a class skill. When I think of a contemplative, I think more of a monk inclined to deep meditation for days at a time, but I'm not sure what you could do with that.

You're working backward from the way I'm working: I wanted a contemplative path, so I found mechanics that could work to simulate it (reasonable powers, plus a mechanic that encourages ranks in Concentration). You're taking these cobbled-together mechanics and trying to fit a path to them. I have no problems with an Artist path, but I do want to have a contemplative if possible -- and unless I can come up with mechanically distinct abilities I won't use the Artist. It is a good thought though, and I like the idea of encouraging Perform (esp. as it's fitting, flavor-wise).

Priest path: this is, I think, too good. At least make it so that a mystic needs Wis = 10+spell level, not that most mystics will be neglecting Wis anyway--it powers a lot of their abilities. It just feels wrong to break what is so far a universal rule for no good reason.

Compared to the cleric, a priest-path mystic looks pretty shabby. A warrior-priest mystic (same saves) could get 9th-level spells and 2 domains at the cost of half her powers, but only casts one spell per level (versus 5+ per level for the cleric).

Removing the Wis requirement doesn't mean anything for powerful characters, but it lets weak and nontraditional characters (think savant path) be useful.

How about this for the Contemplative path:
Gain Spot and Listen as class skills, +2 to rank for choosing mystic powers, with a DC 15 Concentration check their meditation is as restful as sleep but they retain full awareness of surroundings.

Then Artist:
Can sing, chant, pray or dance so as to duplicate bardic music effects: countersong, fascinate, inspire courage, inspire competence, and inspire greatness as a bard of equal level. The mystic uses an appropriate perform skill to activate these abilities, and must maintain sufficient ranks in the skill as a bard.

I also think that adding spot and listen to the scholar path is inappropriate, and Contemplative seems like a good place for them.

Your argument is fairly convincing.

Maybe give the scholar path search instead, or else merge Lorekeeper and Scholar which seem somewhat redundant. Bardic Knowledge is entirely in the DM's hands, it's not a very powerful ability after all.

The mystic power Prowess is at a very high level for its effect, don't you think?

I might lower the level for Prowess, especially now that it's appropriately limited. I might add another ability to Lorekeeper or replace the existing one, I don't know.

I've already complained about the slow fall ability being part of the core, so I won't do it again. But adding the monk weapons to their proficiencies also seems inappropriate for any but the warrior and killer paths. I'd be inclined to just give them access to simple weapons and no armor proficiencies, and have those two paths add some proficiencies on top of that.

I could do that, but it adds complexity I'd prefer to avoid. I'd rather just give the proficiencies even if they're not strictly needed just to give the option. I mean how many paladins have you seen using punching daggers or sorcerers using sickles?

As they stand, the warrior and killer paths are probably 2 of the best 3 pahts out there, so I don't think strengthening them is worthwhile.

I'd like to be able to use this class to represent everything from a peasant spiritual hermit to the warrior-monk traditions--the only unifying theme is a special strength of spirit due to their focus on contemplation, mental and spiritual discipline, as seen in the fixed powers (heart of fire, purity of body, etc.)

Yes, I agree in principle, and I'd still like to remove slow fall from the core. I just don't know quite how to do it.

What if I had two charts of abilities--major and minor--and put slow fall on the minor abilities table? This would give some variety to the way we cost abilities, and would allow us to more easily add abilities and change the power of the class as we test it.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I have a new draft of the water running/wuxia rules on the thread How do I run on water?

I think this is the only major kink still to be worked out. The previous post makes me think that the various changes (to the contemplative path etc.,) are in safe hands.

A suggestion regarding the priest powers; maybe make them spell-like abilities, usable 1/day? Unlike normal spell-like abilities they require components (V,S,F,M and XP). Then there is no anomaly regarding wisdom requirements, bonus spells, etc.. It does free things up a lot with regard to preparation times, need for a divine patron, etc., though. Maybe too much.

I am not especially thrilled about the notion of there being two lists of powers, one major and one minor; I think the basic architecture of the class is sound, and doesn't need fixing.

And to reiterate my previous position, I am kind of fond of slow fall, but don't like the idea of a bardic music path.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Just a little *bump* to show I haven't lost interest in CRGreathouse's project. And if anyone hasn't seen it yet, this is a chance to get it back on the first page.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Just a little *bump* to show I haven't lost interest in CRGreathouse's project. And if anyone hasn't seen it yet, this is a chance to get it back on the first page.

Thank you, Cheiromancer. I suppose I should post my latest version now -- but be warned, it's not quite polished yet.

• I have a hole in the mystic power section (#29).
• The contemplative path needs something for epic levels (column 2, page 3)
• I'm still not entirely happy with the contemplative path; I'd like to change the core ability (adjusting the rest as needed)
• The epic bonus feat list (essentially the epic monk list) needs to be fleshed out

As for the priest powers as spell-like abilities: I don't think that that would make it a better class, and that such a choice would simply be personal preference. My preference is to have them as spells, but this isn't a balance issue -- spell-like abilities are fine, assuming SR and such apply as normal. I recognize that my use of spells is nontraditional, but it appeals to me.

"I would rather they lost the perform skill."

I think that the monk should keep the Perform skill for various reasons (archetype among them). They're in no danger of becoming Western-style bards, and their performances are vastly different. To highlight this difference I decided not to have a bardic path.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Wow great work! I think I'm going to have Mystics in my next campaign!

 

[Cheiromancer]

A foolish mystic casting spells is a bit incongruous, but my suggestion about spell-like abilities adds as many peculiarities as it eliminates. I would not be unhappy if the priest path remained as it is.

I like that perform is a mystic skill; but my dislike of bardic music being a mystic power is greater. I am glad you are not including a bardic path.

I like this version of spiritual journey, and I think you've nailed focused mind. Asceticism and mind over body both fit admirably the theme of the class. But I wonder if mind over body might not be too high a level? I say that, alas, without knowing what a better ordering of powers would be.

Let me say too that I have my doubts about the current version of the "walk on water" power:

Walk on Water (Su): A mystic gains a +20 competence bonus on Balance checks to walk on surfaces that couldn't support the character's weight, such as water (DC 90), fragile branches (DC 90), and clouds (DC 120). Add one-half the monk's speed bonus from fast movement to this bonus. If the mystic moves at least as far as her speed in a given round, double this competence bonus.

"Run" might be better than "walk"; slow moving monks mystics won't stay afloat. I confess I find this wording excessively intricate; a flat bonus, half of a class derived bonus, a modifier for current speed, and the fact (unstated but present in the skill description) that accelerated motion (more than 1/2 your normal speed) gives a -5 to balance checks. And it might raise the question as to what "this competence bonus" is- is it the +20, the 1/2 of the monk's mystic's speed bonus, or the sum of the two?

Assuming the total bonus is meant, say a human mystic with +30 movement attempts to run on water; if she moves at least 60 feet, her bonus is (20 + 1/2 * 30) * 2 = +70. That should do quite nicely, and so I presume that my reading of your intent is correct; with some ranks in balance and a good dex another +20 should be easy to get.

Now, I infer you weren't overly impressed by the "How do I run on water?" thread I linked to above. Let's see if I can clean up a bit what I posted there.... How about the following?

Run on Water (Ex): The mystic can run on surfaces that would not normally support her weight, duplicating the abilities of epic characters. (Running on water or along fragile brances is a DC 90 balance check; running on clouds is DC 120) Instead of the normal bonuses or penalties due to movement, the mystic gets a competence bonus to her balance checks equal to one quarter the speed she is currently running. If she does not get a 20 foot running start the bonus is halved.

With the run feat, a mystic with a 60 base movement rate runs at 300 feet per round; that's a +75 bonus. If she doesn't have the run feat, she better have a base movement of at least 70, or else be really good at balancing.

Although probably not powerful enough for the #29 mystic power, consider what happens if you apply a bonus to jump checks equal to this bonus to balance; to top things up a bit, maybe drop the running start requirement too. A power granting such a bonus would make it easy to jump from the floor to a 20 foot balcony, and maybe even higher if a wall is nearby for them to run up. The DC for a 20 foot jump is 80, and we can add something about the mystic scrambling up a vertical surface to achieve even greater heights. Perhaps the resulting power might be described thus:

Wuxia (Ex): The mystic has so honed her abilities that she appears to defy gravity. She gains a competence bonus to her balance and jump checks equal to her base movement rate (+25% if she has the run feat). Even if the mystic does not take a running start, jump DCs are not doubled; furthermore, she can jump twice the normal distance as long as she has a surface within 5 feet to run up or bounce off of. This power requires and replaces the run on water power.

Note how the rule of the base movement rate coincides with the previous rule of "one quarter the speed she is currently running". Characters run at 4 times their base movement rate, 5 times that (or +25% faster) if they have the run feat; by eliminating the need for a running start and thus the need to run, the change in wording follows logically. Which change makes it easier to adjudicate spring attacks, charges and other maneuvers attempted while using this power.

The mystic from the previous example has a 60 foot base speed and therefore a +12 bonus bonus (see the jump skill description). With a total bonus of +72 (plus ranks, plus strength modifier, plus other modifiers) she can run up the sides of moderately tall buildings (50 feet or so) with a single move action. Moreover, her minimum jumping distance exceeds the distance she can move with a move equivalent action (60); all her time moving can thus, at her option, be spent in the air; she need touch down now and then, and then only momentarily.

 

[Nuclear Platypus]

Doh. Posted this on another thread (the waterwalking one) so here it is again.

What about combining the Slow Fall with the Water Walking?

Ever watch Remo Williams: the Adventure Begins? As he progresses in the Art of Sinanju, he runs across sand without leaving tracks, over wet cement without sinking and his master Chiun is able to run across water while the tv pilot had Remo walking down the stream from a firehose. I could've sworn Chiun told him it had to be just right: not enough and he'll fall but too much and the pressure will push him back.

Anyways, Slow Fall works when the monk makes himself lighter or whatever handwaving reason you give. Eventually the monk would be able to run across sand without leaving tracks, over quicksand without sinking and eventually water til even cloud walking is possible.

 

[Arkhandus]

I'll give more concrete analysis of the current Mystic and the feats soon, but I only have a few more minutes on the computer right now.

Cheiromancer, you misread part of my description for Tread Like Spider; it automatically allows walking on water and other surfaces as noted, but when it comes to keeping the character's balance on a thin surface such as a tree branch, the feat does not grant automatic balance, instead giving a bonus on Balance checks for that. The character can still move freely on water and thin tree branches and such, they just have a chance of falling off any thin perch; they can't fall off of water though because it's not thin enough (from left to right, relatively speaking, that is) for them to have trouble placing their feet; Tread Like Spider automatically allows them to step on water as though it were solid. Now, if they were trying to move along an icicle or a thin stream of water from a fountainhead, that would require a Balance check to avoid taking a misstep and falling over sideways. The depth or solidity of the surface doesn't matter, just its width for placing feet upon it while stepping around.

And aye, as I mentioned originally, the feat chain is probably too long, and definitely so for any standard-magic D&D campaign.

 

[fuindordm]

I think both of the last two posts have very good ideas. A flat bonus equal to movement rate is much more elegant, and it makes good sense to fold the slow fall ability into the same framework.

Make a single new abliity that all mystics get:

Mystic Ki-netics.

OK, that was a bad pun.

Mystic Motion:

Starting at 2nd level, the mystic learns to use their innate life energy (ki) to enhance their athletic abilities. They gain a +10 bonus to her base movment rate, to her balance and jump skills, and can treat a fall as if it were 10' shorter as long as a wall is within arm's reach that she can use to slow her fall.

At 6th level, the bonus to her speed and skills increases to +20 and she can ignore the first 20' of a fall.

At 10th level, the mystic begins to sense the world's life energies as well, and can use the currents of ki in nature to enchance her motion; the bonus to speed and skills increases to +30, but any bonus in excess of +20 is treated as a supernatural ability rather than an extraordinary ability. She can ignore the first 30' of a fall, and no longer needs a wall to slow herself.

At 14th level, the bonuses and safe falling distance increase to 40, and at 18th level to 50.
---------------------------

Then add a single mystic ability:

Cloud Dancing

The mystic takes no penalties to balance checks for movement, and makes all jump checks as though they had a running start. In addition, they add their full movement rate (not just the bonus) to balance and jump checks at all times. This may allow them to walk, run or stand on water and fragile branches (DC 90), or clouds (DC 120), or at epic levels even thin air (DC 150), supported by nothing but the shifting currents of ki.

-----------------------------

This has the advantage of giving all mystics the 'motion' theme (no more inappropriate than slow fall), removing fast movement from the list of mystic powers, and letting you condense the list a bit--some of the upper level abilities are getting too high up there, I think.

However, since you're adding a lot to the core abilities of all mystics, it would be appropriate to reduce the number of player-choice mystic powers. You could give them a mystic power at every odd level, and the fixed powers every even level.

To sweeten the pot a bit, give them four or five bonus feats at the levels they get a fixed power.

The powers table starts this way:

<0: additional path or bonus feat.

The class abilities table looks like this:

1: paths, mystic power
2: mystic motion (+10)
3: mystic power
4: still mind, bonus feat
5: mystic power
6: mystic motion (+20)
7: mystic power
8: purity of body, bonus feat
9: mystic power
10: mystic motion (+30)
11: mystic power
12: heart of fire, bonus feat
13: mystic power
14: mystic motion (+40)
15: mystic power
16: timeless body, bonus feat
17: mystic power
18: mystic motion (+50)
19: mystic power
20: perfect self

So you get 4 bonus feats and 10 mystic powers, in addition to the enhanced movement and purely defensive abilities based on your understanding of ki energy, physical and mental discipline. I
think that's a pretty juicy class, and you get to pick something for your character at almost every
level.

The highest-rated power, spiritual journey, would have a rank of 28--you could get it at 19th level for
your last mystic power if your Wis is 26. That could happen if you started with a 16, boosted it to
a 20 as you leveled, and accrued aging bonuses through the venerable category.

-----------------------------

Other comments: Wholeness of Body and Healing Talent could be condensed into a single mystic ability that can be taken twice, since they have almost the same Wis+Lev requirement.

I like Forceful Fists a lot, but perhaps it should be restricted to the Warrior path?

Preternatural sense might make a nice bonus power for the contemplative path.

I still think Lorekeeper and Scholar are redundant. You already have Free Spirit for giving a choice of class skills.

Damage reduction 2/lawful, that can be taken multiple times, could also be a fun power.

Finally, it's perfectly all right for more than one power to share the same ranking.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Finally, it's perfectly all right for more than one power to share the same ranking.

Yeah, but it is prettier if they all have their own ranking.

Damage reduction 2/lawful, that can be taken multiple times, could also be a fun power.

Do you mean DR/lawful or DR/chaotic? Normally creatures that are evil have DR/good and vice versa; but giving lawful mystics DR/lawful would be an interesting design choice. DR of some kind seems appropriate: IIRC there is a variant monk in Unearthed Arcana that has DR like a barbarian.

The highest-rated power, spiritual journey, would have a rank of 28--you could get it at 19th level for your last mystic power if your Wis is 26. That could happen if you started with a 16, boosted it to
a 20 as you leveled, and accrued aging bonuses through the venerable category.

The contemplative gives a +4 to your effective wisdom for the purpose of choosing bonus powers. (It used to be +8, but CRGreathouse toned it down a bit)

Mystic Motion...

I am not sure that we want *all* mystics to be fast moving; the fact that they are all slow fallers is bad enough... But it makes sense that slow fall could also apply to balance and jump checks. The mystic force that holds you up when you are falling would stop you from losing your balance, and would keep you in the air long enough to jump further.

Then since the current fast movement power adds to the slow fall distance, it would also add to the balance and jump checks. The reference to the DC of walking on water etc. could be worked into the description of the slow fall power, since it would be the base power. An abbreviated form of cloud dancing could become another (probably fairly low ranked power):

Cloud Dancing: The mystic takes no penalties to balance checks for movement, and makes all jump checks as though they had a running start.

The Run on Water and Wuxia powers would be then be redundant.

As for condensing the list of powers... well, improved empty body could be what happens if you take empty body twice. The two are close enough together on the table that you wouldn't have to add any pre-requisites. Something like this:

Empty Body (Su): A mystic gains the ability to assume an ethereal state for 1 round per mystic level per day, as though using the spell etherealness. She may go ethereal on a number of different occasions during any single day, as long as the total number of rounds spent in an ethereal state does not exceed her mystic level. This ability can be taken multiple times; taken a second time the empty body duration increases to 1 minute per mystic level per day; a third selection of this power increases the duration to 2 minutes per level per day, then 3 minutes, and so on.

I don't think that a mystic would need to take the power more than twice, but if a power is stackable it should be able to be taken an unlimited number of times.

What else could be done to shorten the list? Maybe fold wholeness of body into the asceticism power. It's kinda early on the list, but compared with the paladin's laying on of hands it is not too powerful.

[edit]Oh- the DR could be added to the options of the Resistance power. With the #8 power (wholeness of power) combined with asceticism, that leaves a space for cloud dancing. #14 (walk on water) is out, #26 (improved empty body) is folded into #24... we could end up with 27 powers. And 3 * 3 * 3 is a pretty number. [/edit]