Glass jaw of PC defenses

[Runestar]

It seems to me that the same principle works in the reverse, to the PCs favor, as well. The Tarrasque's Will defense is *ELEVEN* points lower than its AC, for example.

Though not every PC can take full advantage of it. Fighters can't target will, for instance. And solos tend to have enough hp to weather an all-out assault from the party, though the reserve is not always true.

It is not all that different from the "target the foe's weak save" concept in 3e.

 

[Nail]

It is not all that different from the "target the foe's weak save" concept in 3e.

Exactly.

And really: It should be hard to build a PC with all of her defences "above average". If it were easy, this game would get boring in a hurry.

AC and Attacks vs AC scale very well with level. For every PC class, about 2 of the other defences also scale well. But there's at least one defence that's poor....and that's how it should be.

 

[Branduil]

I think the problem is mainly at high levels. Having a bad defense is fine. Having a defense where you get auto-hit is not. I think getting a +2 bonus to Fort, Ref, and Will at Paragon tier and another +2 at Epic would fix the problem.

 

[Appleseeth]

I think the problem is mainly at high levels. Having a bad defense is fine. Having a defense where you get auto-hit is not. I think getting a +2 bonus to Fort, Ref, and Will at Paragon tier and another +2 at Epic would fix the problem.

That is pretty much in line with the magic armor boosts. At level 11+, they'll pick up the occasional +4 armor, and at level 21+ they should pick up +6 armor, again, on occasion. However, the extra AC bonuses scale with the type of armor as well. Light armor gives a +1 boost and heavy a +3 boost at each tier.

If I were to add tier bonuses to defenses, I might be more inclined to go with +2 for defenders and leaders, and only +1 for strikers and controllers. The former gets attacked more, in general, and the latter less, plus it goes along with the heavy/light armor division as well, in general.

 

[bganon]

I don't think it's entirely fair to just compare the Tarrasque's attacks vs a single level 30 character's on-paper defenses. At level 30, every character in the party has so many powers that they'll be unloading at least one daily and/or item power in every combat, and many of these will give the monster penalties or buff other player's defenses. I think the high-level monster scaling has deliberately taken this into account.

So while it might -look- like the Tarrasque can auto-hit the Rogue with an attack vs Fort, I suspect in practice it won't have such an easy time of it: even if the Rogue herself doesn't have a power that can negate it (leaping dodge, an item power, or just plain hiding), the party Fighter will be laying down marks, the Cleric can easily have another penalty to lay down, and the Wizard may have already confused/stunned it outright.

 

[Family]

A very good point, below are a couple of tricks up that particular character's sleave:

Trickster’s Disposition: Once per day, you can tell the DM to treat the result of a d20 roll he just made as a 1. No rerolls are possible.

Bracers of Defense (30)
Power (Daily): Immediate Interrupt. Reduce the damage dealt to you by a melee attack by 30.

ENCOUNTER
Second Chance (Racial)
Immediate Interrupt, Personal
Effect: If hit, force the die to be rerolled.
Feat: Halfling Agility: –2 to enemy's reroll.

Leaping Dodge
Immediate Interrupt, Personal
Trigger: An enemy targets you with an attack
Effect: Make an Athletics check to jump with a +5 power bonus and move the distance.

AT-WILL
The Rest of Your Party
Trigger: You're being attacked
Effect: Your party, the rest of them

 

[Kraydak]

If you take everything (levels, magic items, stat boosts) into account, PCs fall behind NPCs in things that they stat pump at about a rate of 1/7 levels. It gets much worse in things that PCs don't stat pump (which includes at least one defense, and frequently two). 1/7 might sound like WotC did a good job matching a complicated progression (PC bonuses) to a simple one (NPC bonuses), but over 30 levels, it does provide a +4 or more to every roll in the NPC's favor.

Because of the stat splits, you can't fix this without giving PCs a +1 to all stats everytime they get +1 to two (a 3 point modifier on a d20 roll is a big deal).

 

[Khanedur]

I know that the NPC and PC math aren't supposed to match. But I haven't had a chance to see how a party feels against, say, fire giants instead of bodak reavers. (both level 18 monsters, one has vs ac attacks, the other also has vs fort).

Has anyone else? Or with a different set of monsters that also attack different defenses? Did it feel reasonable in the fight?

 

[baberg]

I know that the NPC and PC math aren't supposed to match. But I haven't had a chance to see how a party feels against, say, fire giants instead of bodak reavers. (both level 18 monsters, one has vs ac attacks, the other also has vs fort).

Well, the Bodak Reaver's vs. Fort attack is Encounter so it's pretty hard to compare the two.

 

[Khanedur]

Well, the Bodak Reaver's vs. Fort attack is Encounter so it's pretty hard to compare the two.

Actually, that was one of my points from the original post. Not only does it become a virtual auto-hit by targeting fort. The attack against the weak defense is also the one that hits like a freight train.

It may be per encounter, but how many times do you need to hit a PC with a power like that?