Gleemax Terms of Use - Unacceptable

[ThirdWizard]

You do make a few factual errors:

1) They don't get ownership, you grant them a license. This means you still own the material.
2) You cannot grant a license for something you don't have control over. No legal stickiness to it. If you post a picture that you do not own the copyright to, they cannot do anything with it.

But, I understand. It's the principal of the thing, and I can understand that. Personally, I'm not worried, but then if WotC published some of my magic items (*shamelessly plugs sig*) I would not be upset. But, I doubt they'd do it anyway. No point in upsetting the user base and a potential freelancer (note: I have no delusions that WotC would ever hire me as a freelancer, personally, but it could happen for someone out there).

I think my #2 above is enough for peoples' worries to never happen. If they grab some, to keep using the example, magic items that I posted to Gleemax, who is to say that I didn't actually steal them from another publisher. Maybe I'm not the scrupulous young idealist that I make myself to be but a thieving cad! (Hypothetically. of course.) By just grabbing things willy-nilly, they forgot to make sure that I could grant that license. Since I couldn't, they get sued. Oops!

But, again, principles, and I understand that, as I am the same way in certain things.

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

And that's great. But, an online forum isn't the same as submitting a manuscript to a company.

Online forums are usually fairly informal gatherings where people tend to blather on about whatever strikes their fancy. By and large, people posting on a forum are not trying to get what they are posting about published. Forum posts are not submissions and treating them as such leads to all sorts of other problems.

I agree that message board posts should not be considered a submission, and that doing so could lead to problems. However, it does happen, and I am a perfect example of this. My current career as a freelance writer and RPG publisher began because of material I had posted on this forum. I was offered work by a number of publishers based solely on what they saw on EN World (SkeletonKey Games and Goodman Games to name two). Not to mention the work I am currently doing for EN Publishing, which is based on my story hour that was also posted on these forums.

So, in my case, if I had been posting on Gleemax, it is possible that much of what I outlined above could not happen. In addition, many of the ideas that I created and posted on these boards have made their way into Blackdirge Publishing products. Had those ideas first appeared at Gleemax, I would not be able to publish them.

I know that I’m the exception and not the rule, but I think one of the great things about an open forum like EN World (as opposed to Gleemax) is that a message board post might turn into a submission if the right person reads it. I like that; and I think it pushes people to post some of their best ideas on these forums, which, of course, makes EN World a better place to visit.

BD

 

[ThirdWizard]

So, in my case, if I had been posting on Gleemax, it is possible that much of what I outlined above could not happen. In addition, many of the ideas that I created and posted on these boards have made their way into Blackdirge Publishing products. Had those ideas first appeared at Gleemax, I would not be able to publish them.

Note that you grant a non-exclusive license. So you can publish it or sell it to other bidders.

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

Note that you grant a non-exclusive license. So you can publish it or sell it to other bidders.

Oh, must have missed that bit. That does make it a little better.

BD

 

[2WS-Steve]

And that's great. But, an online forum isn't the same as submitting a manuscript to a company.

Online forums are usually fairly informal gatherings where people tend to blather on about whatever strikes their fancy. By and large, people posting on a forum are not trying to get what they are posting about published. Forum posts are not submissions and treating them as such leads to all sorts of other problems.

I'm not quite sure I see how this is a good argument that one should give up even more of their rights when posting their writing to a forum. If anything, it should be an argument that the terms of the release form should be looser.

 

[Fifth Element]

They OWN what you post there. You don't.

Wow. When did granting a non-exclusive license start being the same as transferring ownership?

You still own what you post, assuming you owned it to begin with. They're just allowed to use it. You can still use it. Your posting there does not restrict how you use something.

 

[Fifth Element]

I'm not quite sure I see how this is a good argument that one should give up even more of their rights when posting their writing to a forum. If anything, it should be an argument that the terms of the release form should be looser.

I think the point is that, in a manuscript-submission process, everyone knows what's going on. The purpose is to submit manuscripts, and it's done in a particular way. On an online forum, there is no formal process for anything. The lack of a formal process means that more generalized language is required to cover one's butt.

 

[Fifth Element]

Giving them ownership of my posts is like giving my child to them.

That would be terrible. If it were true. That's not what the TOU state.

 

[Morrus]

But if WotC gets ownership of everything you post to Gleemax,

KM, as many people have pointed out in this thread already, they don't.

Which means, fundamentally, that you don't control what you put onto Gleemax. That they are totally free and clear to do anything with those posts. This includes publishing them without your consent, but also includes selling them to other parties, using them in advertising, etc.

That's correct; they have a non-exclusive license to use them. This, however, doesn't prevent your own use or affect your ownership of them.

Any pictures you find on the internet of other peoples' drawings and post to Gleemax as a representative of your character (say you found something cool on Conceptart.org) become property of WotC (which is part of how this gets legally sticky and ends up getting fans sued).

Nope; you cannot give away property you don't own. If you don't own the rights to the image in question, there's no possible legal situation whereby you can give someone else rights to it. They're not yours to give away.

I can't post the text of a Harry Potter book there and wrest away control of the Harry Potter universe from its publisher (or Rowling, whatever the IP ownership situation is there). If the TOU did grant me that magic power, I'd be able to destroy a lot of very big companies by giving all their property to WotC. Simple fact is, I can't do that, and there's no combination of words WotC can write which will give me that power.

They OWN what you post there.

Again, they don't.

You don't.

And again, you do.

KM, it's clear you have strong feelings on the subject, but you're not actually reading the TOU; you're basing your opinion on what you think the TOU probably say. The key points are the words "grant" and "non-exclusive license". The former requires you to have the legal power to make that grant (so it doesn't affect other peoples' art you found and posted, as you don't have the power to grant rights over it), and the latter does not touch ownership of the property.

Of course, you're perfectly happy to find that situation unacceptable; but you should make your judgements based on what the TOU actually say. It's a pretty clear, non-vague document.

My opinion? I think it's OK. After all, in order to post your character, or your new monster, or your new feat, you're using their material. It seems only fair to me for it to be a two-way street: "you can use our stuff, but we can use yours, too".

 

[resistor]

But if WotC gets ownership of everything you post to Gleemax ...

While I agree with your objection, I don't think you're doing our side of the discussion any favors by misrepresenting (I'll assume unintentionally) the details of the license.