D&D General GM : Spellcaster Arms Race

[tommybahama]

#5 Should be Run Away.

In a recent encounter, we ran into a group of werewolves. Our spell casters threw down area of effect spells between our party and the werewolves so that they would take massive damage trying to get to us. So the werewolves just ran away. We had to drop our spells and chase after them. It became a much more balanced encounter after that.

In the Jack Vance stories mages are always scheming to steal each other's spells, including by murder. That might limit how free wheeling your players are with magic if they know NPC spell casters might learn of their amazing power and plot and scheme against them for their spell books. It might include very powerful beings wanting to bind them into a pact of some sort. . .

 

[Oofta]

I don't "cheat to win". Every once in a blue moon I may "cheat to not TPK" but if I do (very, very rarely) fudge it will be in favor of the PCs.

I do have creatures with anti-magic capability sometimes. Other times there are opposing spellcasters, and yes I may change their loadout especially if they know what they're up against. Still other times things like magical darkness, limited lines of sight and so on will come into play.

But if the party stomps on my encounter? I enjoy it right along with them after doing some overly-dramatic groaning for laughs. Then I just throw more dragons next time, I have an infinite number after all.

In 5E, I just make sure we have enough encounters that they can't always go nova or if I do set up a nova encounter I'll heavily hint that they can go all out because it's fun for the players now and then.

 

[steeldragons]

Level doesn’t matter.

Any spell or gambit (let’s say 2 x low level spells) that dramatically impacts the trajectory of play and changes the gamestate in a significantly positive way for team PC. Examples:

* OMG this low level AoE has crippled this encounter!

* OMG the entire Kings Guard has been Charmed for a coup!

* OMG you upleveled Levitate and Absorb Elements so the entire party just obviates THE MEGA CLIMB (or not) OF MOUNT COLDI-ITUDE!

* OMG you used the Tiny Hut ritual to recharge all spells/HP?

* OMG you Banished the two mega demons and now we just clean up the lackeys?

* OMG you Arcane Eyed the whole dungeon to map the way to/out of x and the dangers from here to there?

Etc

Hmm... Well, aren't those kinds of scenarios what prudent and/or creative and useful magic is for?
Tiny Hut is meant to be used to provide a temporary safe haven. Arcane Eye is meant to scry/scout out an area. If a spell called Banishment isn't specifically meant to be used against demons (or otherworldly enemies)...I'm not sure what its for.

None of the things you listed would be things I would feel the need to...meta-game "counter" somehow.

I will say that Players know fully well that whatever it is they do/come up with becomes fair game for their enemies to know/think of as well. SO shenanigans are unlikely to get too far out of hand...among most games and players I have encountered.

 

[Stormonu]

“The only way to win an arms race, is not to play”

As Others above, if the spellcaster wants to bore himself to death trivializing encounters, I have better things to do than try and play rocket tag. After all, as DM I’ve got access to a far larger suite of encounters and situations. They only have to screw up once to get themselves in trouble - they don’t need my help.

 

[cbwjm]

1) Preemptively using unestablished backstory or unilateral access to the offscreen (NPC x has Antimagic wards on their lair/redoubt, Divination and Teleportation exclusion zones mandated by territorial governing bodies, spellcasting is outlawed or aggressively stigmatized, NPC x has a mage with an anti-spellcaster loadout, NPC x IS a mage with an anti-spellcaster loadout, NPC x has Magic Resistance, etc, etc).

2) Reactively (and secretly) changing loadouts or defenses to counter a spellcaster PC after you've discovered they've got an obstacle/encounter trivializing or obviating spell gambit they're about to deploy.

3) Aggressively using the endless resources at your disposal to actively harangue spellcaster PCs in ways that you don't harangue martial PCs (eg creatures that can steal spells or spellcasters that steal spells but none that steal armor/swords, Rakshashas and the like but limited Rust Monsters, spellbook and component pouch stealing Imps/Pixies).

4) Fudge a Saving Throw Roll or a To-Hit Roll against the Spellcaster.

I don't think I've ever done 2-4, I have done 1 if it made sense for the story. I think that if you're going into the tower of a powerful mage then they'd likely have defences set up to counter other mages, there'd likely be a constant cold war between wizards trying to counter each other. Powerful rulers likely also have various defences to counter divination or teleportation.

PC abilities might be countered by an encounter, but it isn't built specifically to counter a PC, rather it is built according to what makes sense for the encounter and then the PCs need to adapt to it. Sometimes that means that a PC will be less effective than others, but next encounter they may be more effective.

 

[Helldritch]

Why would I want to rein in spell casters as they finally get to the level where they can be game changers?

At some point, if a spell caster has wizard eye, I hand over a map of the dungeon/keep/fort/cave that the arcane eye can get into. They now know the layout? So what? What the player sees is a picture at that moment in time. I change room content here and there, giving them an approximate idea but not a perfect pictures. Maybe some were walking a side corridor to an other room/area...

I use varied encounters, so they know that dispel magic, counter spell and even silence, anti-magic and other "counters" can be used against them.
The key here, is to avoid monotype encounters at the very design step. Once a DM understands that 10 orcs with 5 orogs is a good encounter for their group but that 6 orcs, 2 orogs, 1 Eye of Gruumsh and 1 War chief is way better, they will see their game improve a lot.
Also, change the spell allotment of your NPC casters when expecting troubles. Have your orcs have bows. At high level, use spells like haste and bless. Use the same tactics that your players are using! If a monster has a longsword and uses it two hand, have it get a shield. Way better AC and a single point of damage is not that bad. But that 2 points of AC can be very deadly at times.

And monsters are not in stasis waiting for the players to come to them. They can and will go after the players. Especially after the players left to have a long rest...

Allow nova once in a while but be clear about it. Sometimes, I go for the 6-8 encounters mark, sometimes I go for the 1 encounter. But whenever I go for only one encounter, the players will be sure that it is meant to be only one encounter. If I have to go and use the "You hear a voice in your head saying: Go all in! Know your god is with you!" I will.

 

[OB1]

For 95% of the encounters I design, I could care less if magic makes overcoming it trivial. The PCs are heroes, and the point is for them to succeed. That said, when it comes to certain campaign defining encounters, I generally build them with the idea that, to quote a great book, The Monsters Know What They are Doing.

Case in point, this weekend, my group is going Adult Green Dragon hunting. Slatinthor has been a thorn in the side of the five PCs and the region they are adventuring in for a few dozen sessions. They're sick of him, want his treasure, and having reached 9th level last week, feel like they are ready to take him on. I've upgraded Slatinthor by giving him the spellcasting trait as well as a host of thralls and worshipers to help protect his lair.

Slatinthor hasn't lived in his lair for three centuries, growing his treasure hoard to an immense size, without figuring out how to deal with upstart adventuring parties looking to come murder him and steal his stuff, and the party is going to quickly discover that in his woods, he is the alpha predator and they are the prey.

I hinted at the foolishness of their quest last session, when NPC after NPC told the party "nice knowing you" when they explained what they were doing. I'm going to hit them over the head with it at the start of the next session, when they find the body of the only survivor of the last adventuring party to try and take on Slatinthor, along with a journal giving some hints to the defenses and unexpected powers that Slatinthor has.

Those defenses are formidable, and designed to suss out ahead of time what a party is capable of and what protections they may have (especially anything that can counter his breath weapon). Slatinthor will use that knowledge in the final defense of his lair, and if need be, flee, let the party take his treasure, and then hunt them down and destroy them on the way back to civilization.

With all that, if the party pulls out something that ends the fight in one round, I would cheer along with them. If it ends with a TPK, I believe they will cheer along with me. But either way, it will be great because they know what they are getting into, and that victory is not assured in this fight.

 

[prabe]

But I don't want to turn this into a "which spellcasters are the most powerful" thread. I'm curious about GMs who feel that this sort of Arms Race and these sorts of blocks are appropriate moves to be made against mid/high (and above) level Spellcasters in D&D and what that looks like in actual play at their tables.

Yeah. I was merely providing data that I, personally, haven't done the things you mentioned--at least, not specifically to prevent the PCs from using magic to do stuff. Even the city council building with protections against scrying, the wizard was able to have his familiar watch the proceedings the party were interested in through a clerestory window (which was there to admit light, and was therefore not protected from actually seeing through it).

 

[cbwjm]

I don't "cheat to win". Every once in a blue moon I may "cheat to not TPK" but if I do (very, very rarely) fudge it will be in favor of the PCs.

When it comes to fudging rolls, this is the only reason why I've done it. Normally it's because I have some sort of homebrew spell or monster that is more powerful than intended and I'm still trying to get to grips with things like a new edition or the power of the group. I actually have the opposite problem at the moment, I'm always underestimating the group and what should have been a deadly encounter often isn't.

 

[Lanefan]

So, then. GMs out there who feel that it is appropriate and responsible GMing to focus this kind of overhead to passively and actively counter spellcaster PCs. How often per session or how often per spell deployment are you countering spellcaster PCs via any of the below:

1) Preemptively using unestablished backstory or unilateral access to the offscreen (NPC x has Antimagic wards on their lair/redoubt, Divination and Teleportation exclusion zones mandated by territorial governing bodies, spellcasting is outlawed or aggressively stigmatized, NPC x has a mage with an anti-spellcaster loadout, NPC x IS a mage with an anti-spellcaster loadout, NPC x has Magic Resistance, etc, etc.

Anti-magic wards in lair: rarely.
Divination and Teleportation exclusion zones: frequently. For example, most major temples to any deity are safe from incoming divination/teleport/planeshift other than by Clerics of that deity, and this is generally known among adventurers. I've even had parties find magic items that could give such defenses to a home base, were they ever to establish one. Thus, NPC foes having such things isn't out of the question. But it's always local to a building or structure or complex, never widespread enough to cover a whole city or anything bigger.
Specific anti-caster loadout: rarely, but if it makes sense e.g. the foe knows there's (a) caster(s) coming and has the means to deal with it then yes.
Spellcasting outlawed or stigmatized: in general, rare-to-never; though specific towns and cities commonly ban use of specific spells e.g. Invisibility.
Another one to add: Wild magic zones in lair or area: rarely, but once in a while I'll build a whole adventure around this premise.

2) Reactively (and secretly) changing loadouts or defenses to counter a spellcaster PC after you've discovered they've got an obstacle/encounter trivializing or obviating spell gambit they're about to deploy.

Never say never, but...never.

3) Aggressively using the endless resources at your disposal to actively harangue spellcaster PCs in ways that you don't harangue martial PCs (eg creatures that can steal spells or spellcasters that steal spells but none that steal armor/swords, Rakshashas and the like but limited Rust Monsters, spellbook and component pouch stealing Imps/Pixies).

Never. As DM I harangue everyone equally.

That said, the other PCs have been known to turn on their casters and give 'em hell (or worse!) every now and then, usually in response to being "accidentally" fireballed once too often. One of my own PCs (Lanefan, in fact!) went so far as to lay in for a +2 Wizardslayer Longsword for just this reason; he still has it, and any mage he runs with is clearly warned of its existence and his willingness to use it if he takes any "friendly" fire; this due to having been killed by friendly fire at least twice earlier in his career.

4) Fudge a Saving Throw Roll or a To-Hit Roll against the Spellcaster.

Never a to-hit roll; very rarely (maybe once ever?) a saving throw.