GM to GM Candids

[Zourin]

For a little back-story, I've done small friend/circle GM'ing since AD&D and have gotten nothing short of great feedback from all my players. I took a few years off and reunited with one of my players who has taken up GM'ing himself under the Pathfinder books and invited me along.

Happily, I dusted off an old character archetype, touched it up, and dove in for a few sessions. The only problem is that while he has talent, there are several things that he's doing that is putting serious strain on the other players' tolerances that I'm seeing as a former GM. Encounters usually involve overbearing NPC influence or abilities that leave some players sitting on sidelines or dying on the floor for most of the fight, rampant deus-ex-machina conclusions, gratuitous penalties for rolling 1's, and announcing every time he pulls a punch to save us.

The last encounter left everyone holding actions for 4+ consecutive rounds to environment constraints and the fighter refused to go anywhere near the two assassins, one of which the spellcasters quickly found out had the SR of a level 18 Drow or higher and rolled crits at least once a round.. we were level 7's and 6's. By the time it was done, one player had been asleep on the floor for two hours (he stepped up first to fight and got dropped hard) before he could even act again and both spellcasters were pissed.

What would you do if you had such a GM that had a great creative foundation and player group but needed to tighten his GM'ing skills so people don't go home at 4am riled up?

 

[KiloGex]

Honestly, I'd just be up front with him. If you can, outside of the game, just talk to him. First off (as you probably know) any GM worth his weight will constantly be asking his players what they thought off the session and constantly adjusting their approach to the next game. If he's not asking for feedback, then you guys need to just give it to him - it's the only way that he's going to get better. Tell him what he's doing right and what you love about his games, but also mix that with what you all find difficult and troubling about his encounters (since it seems like his story is really good, but his combat is what's troubling). He just needs to be told outright, in a non-aggressive and constructive manner.

 

[dd.stevenson]

Building on what KG said, you can just invite your GM to open the floor for feedback.

"Hey Mr. GM, I sorta got some stuff I'm hanging on to--for whenever you happen to go around the table asking for feedback."

 

[Fooly_Cooly]

Honestly I have done the same a few times. Over compensate for a few players I know are good and therefore make the challenge to much for the rest of the players. Is he moslty making his own enemies? Does he actually follow the CR rules? Or does he just pick an enemy he think would be cool for the encounter and throw it at you?

 

[KiloGex]

Honestly I have done the same a few times. Over compensate for a few players I know are good and therefore make the challenge to much for the rest of the players. Is he moslty making his own enemies? Does he actually follow the CR rules? Or does he just pick an enemy he think would be cool for the encounter and throw it at you?

Same here. You're totally right that sometimes you need to even out by making it a little harder for the group, but realize that the more min/maxed characters are going to have an easier time than the rest of the party.

There is a careful balance between "PCs wipe the floor with them" and "roll up new characters". But finding that balance is not only between the NPCs and the characters, but the GM and players as well. It requires you to step up and tell him that the encounters aren't fun. Crowd control and status effects can make a fight really interesting, but only if the players still have something to do (instead of sleeping on the floor) during the encounter.

 

[The Red King]

I'd go with "be up front" and mix it with some "be nice". Don't bash him, but do let him know he is killing the play experience.


Remind him that it isnt the DM vs. The PC's. That one is hard for some new DM's to realize. You arent there to win, just to have a good time!

 

[Zourin]

The major issues aren't so much in his storytelling, so much as his lack of knowledge about the rules, poor adjudication, poor homework, and hasn't learned that you provide the engine and the atmosphere, but the players drive the game.

I can take a bunch of CR 4-5 encounters and traps together and put the fear of god into a pack of min/maxed level 7 characters, but that takes experience and knowing both your rules and your players.

My greatest worry is that he won't be open to feedback. He was always bullheaded and always trying to lock horns with me back when he first picked up the 3.5 rule books and joined into my campaign (I was playing, but quickly became the DM after a player-coup). I do feel mildly responsible, since I know he's trying to emulate my style, and may be trying too hard to 'one up' his own experiences for his audience.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6695312]Zourin[/MENTION]
Could be your DM thought he was clueing you all into the extreme level of threat that was the CR 18 drow. The combination of symptoms you describe makes me think that's likely. Maybe from the DM's perspective you and other players were recklessly going after a challenge way outside your level despite his "warnings"? And the railroading could be this DM's attempt to make sure he doesn't TPK the party.

I don't know. But there's always two sides (if not more).

 

[Zourin]

[MENTION=6695312]Zourin[/MENTION]
Could be your DM thought he was clueing you all into the extreme level of threat that was the CR 18 drow. The combination of symptoms you describe makes me think that's likely. Maybe from the DM's perspective you and other players were recklessly going after a challenge way outside your level despite his "warnings"? And the railroading could be this DM's attempt to make sure he doesn't TPK the party.

I don't know. But there's always two sides (if not more).

The party was railroaded into him and his 'apprentice', and they both whipped around keen rapiers +2, leather +2, and belts of dex +4 and had the 5' entryway flanked at the top of a switchback staircase where nobody could get LOS up except if you were on the stairway. On top of that, he was 'adjudicating' that sneak attack damage was multiplied on critical hits, an error I was too tired and frustrated to notice because by then I'd discovered the stacked spell resistances and called BS.

The guy with heavy armor and a munchkin sword refused to nut-up and held actions with the rest of us until the DM had to break the standoff by having the NPC's make stupid mistakes so we win rather than have them pull the lever that would collapse the ceiling on us all. This particular lever he was unmistakably determined to make us aware that that's what that lever did in the back of the room.

This is where we get to the "DM's Wife" domain and where he hinged the entire encounter on the young Mrs. (ostensibly) rolling 'anything but a 1' on the sneak check. She rolled a 1, to which his 'catastrophic failures for any natural 1' house rule kicked in and things went to hell in front of him.

We didn't get out of that fight until 4am in the morning RL and by then everyone was too tired to know what they were angry about, except his wife who mysteriously identified and grabbed nearly all the magic loot first and the munchkin got another high-octane weapon to go with his other one second. After some jockeying and serious BS-calling, a little of the loot went to me (the ballsy EK who stepped up to the challenge), the wizard, and the cleric who was busy duct taping my parts back together.

Were it anyone else, I'd leave nothing but the smell of burnt rubber in that house, but I don't get to play if I'm not DM'ing.

 

[Fooly_Cooly]

Ouch... thats a fairly crappy scenario...There are ways to beat enemies much higher in CR than you need but only under good conditions and with careful planning. Running into these guys on predetermined ground like that..Not cool. Yeah. I agree. Be up front but dont be harsh about it. Just let him know he is going a little to hardcore. Ask him to try some more standard encounters first. Maybe run a small pre made campaign and see how it goes, That helps teach DM's rules and how to use monsters and NPC's properly.