GMW vs Keen - why the duration disparity?

[Plane Sailing]

I notice that Greater Magic Weapon and Keen Edge are both 3rd level spells. GMW lasts for 1 hour per level, Keen edge lasts for 10 minutes per level.

Why such a disparity? Nearly as soon as GMW becomes available it is producing +2 weapons (6th) and a quick glance at the DMG shows that keen is a mere +1 equivalent...

So it would appear that GMW, which scales and becomes more powerful with caster level, and starts off as a higher "magical equivalent power", ALSO HAS A LONGER DURATION??

I'm finding it hard to think of a rationalisation that works here...

I can think of a few house rule "solutions" which might be worth thinking about, but as a starting point I'd be interested in other peoples views about this disparity.


Cheers

 

[IceBear]

Hmmmmm - I haven't really looked at those spells much, but given how much GMW seems to cause problems, maybe it should have a 10 minute duration too.

IceBear

 

[Mulkhoran]

Hmmmmm - I haven't really looked at those spells much, but given how much GMW seems to cause problems, maybe it should have a 10 minute duration too.

IceBear

You should post this in the "annoyed about archers" thread. It's the core of the entire conversation over there.

 

[hong]

I posted three possible nerfs for GMW before:

- reduce duration to 10 mins/level (or less)
- allow the weapon to penetrate DR, but no actual bonus to attack and damage rolls
- cut the bonus to +1 per 4 caster levels (or even +1/5 levels)

Not sure what the consensus was, if any.

 

[IceBear]

You should post this in the "annoyed about archers" thread. It's the core of the entire conversation over there.

That was the exact thread I was thinking of actually

IceBear

 

[Plane Sailing]

Even with a 10min/level duration, the same as Keen Edge, it is still a wildly more effective spell.

Personally I think the ideal would be to have the following bunch of spells

1st Magic Weapon (as normal, +1)
3rd GMW (+2 enhancement)
5th GGMW (+3 enhancement)
7th GGGMW (+4 enhancement)
9th GGGGGMW (+5 enhancement)

After all, a +5 weapon always used to be one of the pinnacles of the campaign... this way you wouldn't be terribly likely to see it just cast willy-nilly on a parties weapons.

Still, I can see why many people wouldn't like that I think the ideal situation might be GMW lasts for 10mins/level and Keen Edge becomes a 2nd level spell.

Cheers

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Venturing a guess, I'd say the tendency is to balance spells at the levels they are acquired, not considering the relative value at higher levels.

At 6th level, with GMW granting a +2 vs Keen, the spells roughly balance.

At 15th level, however ... edge defintiely to GMW.

I see this tendency in a lot of spells, from Magic Missile on up. 3E has improved this over previous editions IMO, but balance still tends to get wonky at higher levels (as I think the archer thread is trying to demonstrate).

 

[Stalker0]

GMW is definately one of those buff spells you see character's using all the time, a reduction in duration would probably be a good thing imo since I hate buffing.

 

[Spatzimaus]

DISCLAIMER: I don't think GMW is balanced. I'm just guessing as to the logic I think they were using.

GMW is like Mage Armor/Ectoplasmic Armor. It bestows a common bonus type that most characters will already have. If your group's tank is using a +4 sword, casting a +4 GMW won't help him. Since every magic weapon has at least a +1 Enhancement bonus already, and most weapon-wielding people get more powerful weapons as they go along, in most cases casting GMW will give an Enhancement bonus at most 1-2 points higher than before. GMW's effect is usually marginal... except on arrows, which tend to be unenchanted, and suddenly it's a huge bonus.

Keen, on the other hand, is fairly uncommon. Most fighter-types are using slashing or piercing weapons and would benefit from the Keen spell.

Now, I'd drop GMW to 10 min/level, but I'd also change the way GMW works on bows and arrows. For example, one concept I was considering was having the caster have to cast GMW on the bow AND ammunition at the same time, with reduced effect on each.
Enhancement bonuses give four basic things: attack bonus, damage bonus, DR penetration, and Sunder resistance. Right now, the attack bonuses stack, the damage bonuses stack, the DR penetration only uses the arrow's bonus, and the Sunder resistance only uses the bow's bonus.
Give GMW's attack bonus and sunder resistance to the bow, and the damage bonus and DR penetration to the arrows. The bow's original damage bonus and arrow's original attack bonus would remain unchanged.

Example: Let's say I can GMW to +4. I have a +3 bow and unenchanted arrows. Before casting, I have +3 to attack, +3 damage. Currently, if I cast GMW on the arrows I increase to +7/+7, and casting GMW on both gives +8/+8.
Under this modified system, casting GMW on the bow+arrow combination makes the bow +4/+3, the arrows +0/+4, giving +4/+7. A bit more complicated, but more balanced IMHO. Or, reverse it (attack bonus to arrows, damage bonus to bow) to make +7/+4.

This'd only apply to GMW-enhanced weapons; a normally enchanted bow or arrow would still work as before, as would the Arcane Archer's ability.

 

[mkletch]

I posted three possible nerfs for GMW before:

- reduce duration to 10 mins/level (or less)
- allow the weapon to penetrate DR, but no actual bonus to attack and damage rolls
- cut the bonus to +1 per 4 caster levels (or even +1/5 levels)

Not sure what the consensus was, if any.

Or give the attack/damage bonus but no penetrate DR. That would be a real "balance" for GMW.

-Fletch!