Gnoll and lizardfolk challenge ratings (is there a difference?)

[Sonofapreacherman]

Compare gnolls to lizardfolk. Both are 2 Hit Dice creatures with a +1 Level Adjustment and both have attribute modifiers that total +2. Now ask yourself... are these monsters evenly balanced?

Lizardfolk start off with three class skill, three +4 skill bonuses, two racial languages, simple weapon proficiency, shield proficiency, a hold breath ability, a claw/claw/bite attack routine, and +5 natural armor.

Gnolls start off with two class skills, one racial language, darkvision, +1 natural armor, simple weapon proficiency, martial weapon proficiency, light armor proficiency, and shield proficiency.

The only qualities lizardfolk lack over gnolls are darkvision, martial weapon proficiency, and light armor proficiency. But lizardfolk more than make up for those last two deficiencies with their natural weapons and natural armor bonus.

I am beginning to think that gnolls either deserve more abilities or no Level Adjustment, because in what should supposedly be an even fight, lizardfolk would kick their collective canine asses.

To leave gnolls the way they are printed now, I would recommend removing their Level Adjustment and adding the "scent" ability.

To justify their +1 Level Adjustment, however, I would *definitely* make "scent" one of their racial traits. In addition to that, I would add a claw/claw/bite attack routine of their own, Survival as a racial class skill, and a +2 bonus on Listen, Spot, and Survival checks. Darkvision is a genuinely good advantage, and should not be discounted as a balancing factor.

I would love to hear what people think about these changes.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Compare gnolls to lizardfolk. Both are 2 Hit Dice creatures with a +1 Level Adjustment and both have attribute modifiers that total +2. Now ask yourself... are these monsters evenly balanced?

Lizardfolk start off with three class skill, three +4 skill bonuses, two racial languages, simple weapon proficiency, shield proficiency, a hold breath ability, a claw/claw/bite attack routine, and +5 natural armor.

Gnolls start off with two class skills, one racial language, darkvision, +1 natural armor, simple weapon proficiency, martial weapon proficiency, light armor proficiency, and shield proficiency.

The only qualities lizardfolk lack over gnolls are darkvision, martial weapon proficiency, and light armor proficiency. But lizardfolk more than make up for those last two deficiencies with their natural weapons and natural armor bonus.

I am beginning to think that gnolls either deserve more abilities or no Level Adjustment, because in what should supposedly be an even fight, lizardfolk would kick their collective canine asses.

To leave gnolls the way they are printed now, I would recommend removing their Level Adjustment and adding the "scent" ability.

To justify their +1 Level Adjustment, however, I would *definitely* make "scent" one of their racial traits. In addition to that, I would add a claw/claw/bite attack routine of their own, Survival as a racial class skill, and a +2 bonus on Listen, Spot, and Survival checks. Darkvision is a genuinely good advantage, and should not be discounted as a balancing factor.

I would love to hear what people think about these changes.

These creatures are in the MM for a reason. Don't let the "x race as characters" text fool you. The LAs are probably fractional.

 

[Commonblade]

Not all creatures are created equal.

I have been running a campaign allowing the PC's to choose races with level adjustments and one of the things I learned early is that not all races are created equal. Some races are on the low side of an ECL and others the High side. Right now I have a Half-dragon(RED), Half-Dragon(blue)/Fey'ri, Azer, and a Pixie. I started everyone at first level and for each LEVEL adjustment and HD they started with I made them apply a -1 penalty to Saves, Checks, and Attackrolls. They can pay off the penalties each time they level. The Half Dragons to date have never paid off a level while the Pixie has paid off 2.

 

[Kobold Stew]

This is very much what I was getting at in my Clever Gnoll posts yesterday:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=99854

Removing the LA +1 still doesn't balance things, though:

(since people thought my clever gnoll was implausible, we'll assume Int 10 characters)

case 1: best case (= average) Gnoll-- 2d8 = ECL 2

maximum number of skill points (i.e. no cc-skills): 10
feats: 1

Analysis: this is exactly the same as the worst-case ECL 2 player race:
10 int half-orc 2rd level sorc = ECL 2
maximum number of skill points: 10.
feats: 1

So... Balance!(?) Except...

case 2: gnoll with 2d8 +1 ranger (preferred class) = ECL 3

maximum number of skill points: 16
feats: 2 + track = 3

Analysis: this is 32 skill points behind a 3rd level ranger:
10 Int half-orc 3th level ranger = ECL 3
maximum number of skill points: 48
feats: 1 + track + combat style + endurance. = 4

That gap will never close, but, maybe that's as well; monster characters should be a little worse than normal PC races.

I expect that your idea of a free feat (scent? alertness? power attack?) and removing the LA+ 1 would help gnolls alot. So would a third class skill (ANYTHING!), so that there is some choice in skill assignment.

Not all of the 'playable as character' races in the MM will balance, and an individual's gameplay style alone can account for a +/- 1 to LA. I'm not really looking for universal agreement or 'fairness' on any race with an LA +3 or more; there are just too many ways to argue it. But with low dice monsters, with low-level LAs, it shoudl be fairly easy to reach agreement I'd have thought.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Based on the firefights about the level adjustment of the blue goblin on the psionics forum, no, I don't think standardizing low LA races is easy.

As I said, they're usually fractional.

 

[dcollins]

I wrote a simple combat simulator a while back that I use to compare monsters in a straight-up fight. I find this particularly useful for gauging CR/ECL of monsters specialized for combat brutes (which includes lizardfolk & gnolls).

In the past I ran it on Lizardfolk and found that the natural armor & attacks definitely makes them worth EL +1 against a normal NPC fighter (lizardfolk are allowed as PCs in the campaign I DM).

I just ran it on Gnolls, and I think now that EL +0 may be appropriate, but it's closer than I expected. The big Strength boost really pays off in melee combat (i.e., the ability modifiers skew towards a better specialized fighter).

Results:
Gnoll Ftr2 -- opposed by NPC Ftr4 wins 49%, by Ftr5 wins 75%.
Gnoll Ftr7 -- NPC Ftr9 wins 76%, Ftr10 wins 51%.
Gnoll Ftr12 -- NPC Ftr14 wins 35%, Ftr15 wins 73%.

In the first case it's best approximated by EL +0; in the second case by EL +1; and in the third case EL +0 (but just barely). Also, this is melee combat, it would do less well in an archery duel.

So if I had to pick one myself I would pick EL +0, but it's definitely on the high side of that category. (Equivalent to original stat in the 3.0 DMG, btw.)

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

dcollins makes a good point. Now look at it from the Savage Species perspective. It creates a level playing field of power next to the core races.

For anybody unfamiliar with racial classes from Savage Species, it is easy to work out how many racial levels each monster class requires. Simply add their Hit Dice to their Level Adjustment. In the case of gnolls, that obviously means 2 Hit Dice and a +1 Level Adjustment for 3 levels of advancement.

All you have to do after that is space their abilities out over the appropriate number of levels. In the case of gnolls, however, the affect is pretty barren, which is what made me first realize that gnolls should either not have a Level Adjustment or they should gain more abilities (like scent or a claw/claw/bite attack routine) to justify it.

Right now, the printed gnoll staggers across 3 racial levels like this...

-----

GNOLL RACIAL TRAITS

• Strength +2, Constitution +2, Intelligence –2, Charisma –2.
• Size Medium.
• A gnoll's land speed is 30 feet.
• Darkvision out to 60 feet.
• Automatic Languages: Gnoll. Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Goblin, Orc.
• Favored Class: Ranger.

       Hit   Base          Fort  Ref   Will
Level  Dice  Attack Bonus  Save  Save  Save  CR  Special
 1st   1d8   +0             +2    +0    +0   1   Natural armor +1
 2nd   1d8   +0             +2    +0    +0   1   +2 Strength
 3rd   2d8   +1             +3    +0    +0   1

Class Skills
The gnoll's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Craft (Int), Listen (Wis) Profession (Wis), and Spot (Wis). See Chapter 4: Skills in the Player's Handbook for skill descriptions.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Hit Dice: 2 + Int modifier.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Gnolls are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with light armor, and with shields (except tower shields).

----

As you can tell, the final product leaves a lot to be desired. There is no incentive or reason to take the 3rd level of gnoll.

 

[Stormrunner]

Personally, IMC I give gnolls at least a bite attack (they've got big frickin' fangs, fergoshsake!), and the option to take Scent as a feat. In fact I made their bite attack 1d8 (one step better than usual for a Medium creature), since hyenas are known for their exceptionally strong jaws.

 

[Lizardman]

The only qualities lizardfolk lack over gnolls are darkvision, martial weapon proficiency, and light armor proficiency.

I've noticed that Races of Faerun states that Lizardfolk do indeed have 60' darkvision. Are there any other sources that back this up?