Goblin as a PC questions

BlakeT

First Post
I was considering approaching my DM about possibiliy switching to a Goblin character in the Eberron campaign we're playing in. I noticed the large Goblin population in Sharn after we started playing and thought that overall I think it would be a interesting character to play. Of course it wasn't something I considered beforehand, now I need to see if he'll let me switch mid-stream.

Onto the questions. The only source of info I seem to have for Goblins as a PC is the blurb in the Monster Manual, 3.5, about it's stats, etc... Are there any other references to them as a PC anywhere that I might have missed, or might not have?

I assume that they are small in all regards, in that they have to use small sized weapons, etc...?

Thanks for your time. Any advice towards building a fun Goblin Rogue would be appreciated as well.
 

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I'm not very familiar with Eberron. Unless your DM has some special goblin-related things developed for the campaign, I would expect this would be a reasonable request. The goblin's bonuses don't jump out at me as being unbalanced:

GOBLINS AS CHARACTERS
Goblin characters possess the following racial traits.
— –2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, –2 Charisma.
—Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, –4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits 3/4 those of Medium characters.
—A goblin's base land speed is 30 feet.
—Darkvision out to 60 feet.
— +4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks.
—Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.
—Favored Class: Rogue.

They are indeed small, so they have to use the small-sized weapons.

The closest races from the PHB would be halfling or gnome. The goblin is taking an extra -2 stat penalty compared to either of them. The biggest benefits the goblin gets in return are the 30' base movement (nice, but not unbalancing) and the Darkvision 60' (similar to a dwarf or half-orc). The +4 bonus on move silent and ride are probably about equal to the bonuses that the halfling or gnome get.

Since I primarily DM, my main experience with goblin characters has been NPCs. I've made a few goblin rogues before. What works for other small-sized rogues works for them:

- Small-size adds a big +4 bonus on hide in shadows and goblins also get a +4 move silent bonus. Use that to your advantage and try to sneak around to stay out of harms way and take advantage of sneak attacks.

- Small-size means their base damage is smaller than usual. In addition, critical hits are less important for small-sized characters. They tend to have lower strength (-2 str penalty for the goblin) and the weapon damage is lower as well. But none of that impacts the sneak attack dice (xd6). When attacking, it's even more important for small-sized rogues to try to catch opponents flat-footed (via high init or stealth) or flank them than it is for larger rogues. Good feats are Improved Init as well as the Dodge/Mobility route to let you move into position.

- Small-size characters tend to have much higher dex than str, so Weapon Finesse is usually very useful.

- Two Weapon fighting lets you get more attacks, and possibly more sneak attacks.

Given those, the general feat track I'd recommend for a small-sized rogue would be Improved Init (1st), Weapon Finesse (3rd), Two-Weapon Fighting (6th). Wait to take Weapon Focus only after you've decided on a decent weapon (or weapons). You never know what your DM might hand out. It would suck to choose rapier and then find a small-size short sword of ultra-buttkicking later on. Another feat to consider is Improved Toughness if your DM allows feats from Complete Warrior. It can be a great feat for lower hp types like rogues. Dodge & Mobility are useful as well.

Rogues don't get a lot of feats, so if you like the rough&tumble up close style, you may want to consider multiclassing to fighter for a couple levels to pick up a few extra feats as well as gain martial weapon access and some larger HD. However, the pure-rogue build will always have more skills, higher sneak damage, and reach the other upper rogue-level abilities faster.

The skills I'd concentrate on would be Move Silent, Hide in Shadows, Tumble, Climb, Spot, Listen, Search and Bluff (to rehide). If you have enough intelligence to learn more, then pick up some ranks in Pick pocket, Open Lock, Disable Device and so forth. With the charisma penalty, the other social skills (gather info, diplomacy, etc) are probably going to be poor for a goblin, but could certainly be useful for infiltrating humanoid groups to learn info, so it's your call on whether to dump points into them.
 

There's a lot of good fun potential in playing a goblin, in part because they seem weak comapared to many standard PC races--but that doesn't stop them being fun! (Ditto for kobolds!)

In fact, there was a thread on this the other day--here it is:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=105058

that has some ideas.

If you're willing to spend five bucks to dowload the .pdf, Cromagh's Guide to Goblinoids is pretty good, too (though the emphasis on traps to my taste is more koboldian).

You ask for build ideas. One concept I've been toying with, and intend to try out soon, is to take a level in barbarian. Build the character like a rogue, but a single level in barb will give you some extra hitability (especially if taken at first level, though that hurts your skill points), and increase your base movement to 40'. Nothing that is small can move that fast (except a kobold with a level of barb!) and I think that the flexibility that gives you as a rogue will really help. You also always have a rage a day, should it be needed.

But sneak attack is your friend. Maximize bluff (for sneak), hide, move silently (since you're a small goblin), and some unexpected skill too: sense motive, gather information, intimidate (which will be a class skill, though an expensive one, due to the level in barbarian)--even with the hit to charisma, you'll soon have enough points in the skill that you will have really fun out-of-combat things to do. Also, ride isn't a class skill for rogues but it is for barbarians, so it too can be built up.

Hope this helps. Have fun.

Kobold Stew
 

I am currently playing a blue (psionic goblin) changed to +0 LA. Let me tell you though, those penalties definately hurt!

Still though, if you have ever played diablo I always like to picture those goblin guys from some of the first areas. 'Rockneatyou!!' lol.. it is great.

They have the pack mentality and running away whenever things look rough, that is exactly how I am playing this guy and it is a blast, but it is difficult to make a big impact generally.

Depending on the type of 'rogue' you are going for I would suggest either making it a ranger or a psychic rogue, or a combination of the two, but that is just me ;)

What sort of build were you hopeing for?
 

Again gotta echo that goblins are fun but definately need to be played as support characters because they are weak! (but thats are fair trade off that you need to accept before rping a goblin) Going Rogues already been mentioned as the obvious choice. Personally I've played a gob Bard (as a spy, infobroker type) and was considering Psychic Warrior (Barbarian/Pyschic Warrior even better:D - go for speed!!)
 

Thanks everyone for the replies, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to give me all the info you have. I was hoping there was some 'official' source, aka a WoC source, where there was more info for goblin characters. I don't think I'd pick up that .pdf, as I'm cutting back on my purchases right now. I appreciate the suggestion though.

As to what concept I was thinking about ... I was thinking of a sneak thief type, one that is a melee rogue (I know he won't be the best at it obviously). One that takes advantage of the sneak attack obviously. I was even thinking of eventually doing dual shortswords, though I realize the damage is lower because of the small size.

I haven't talked to my DM about this yet as we're in the middle of an adventure right now. I will talk to him about it once we're finished and between adventures. It'll give me more time to think about it as well.

I would see him needing Weapon Finesse, Two weapon fighting, Weapon Focus (shortsword), Improved Initiative. I'd imagine I would take the Weapon Finesse at level one as the bonus to hit would be important.

So picture him as a lock picking, silent moving rogue type but one that does indeed enjoy mixing it up in combat.

Sorry I haven't replied until now, it was a pretty busy weekend.
 

I played a goblin barbarian before. He wasnt the brightest character, now the most sanitary, and the pcs had to sneak him around in a sack/hiddein under a cloack, but nonetheless everyone loved that character. It grew on the party and the other players. The 8 constitution really hurt though...
 

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