GOD RULES: Player's Guide (5e) Previews/Discussion

[Upper_Krust]

Do you mean "the damage increases by the target's Damage Threshold multiplier x100" or "the damage increases by the target's Damage Threshold multiplier"?

Standard damage threshold multiplier = 0.3, i.e. 30%.
Multiplied by 100 = 30, i.e. 3,000%.

Would recommend a worked example when you explain this one in the book - which I imagine you already planned to do!

The Current write up in the book is:

Gravitic Energy (Super-Force): Weaponizes mass itself.
Mechanic: Gravitic energy increases by a percentage = to the target’s Damage Threshold modifier x100.

E.g. Flesh & Blood beings (modifier x0.3) take +30% damage
Iron Golems (modifier x0.5) take +50% damage, etc.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Yeah, I think growths creating more growths which create more growths etc could get too crazy (and a pain to track).

Agreed.

So nothing can be immune to two opposed elements, like both fire and ice? Is that an issue for some (e.g. space-dwelling) creatures that might need both? Or would they just be resistant to both?

You don't always have to use the opposite - its just a handy rule of thumb. But each Immunity MUST be accompanied by a Vulnerability:

ie. if Tiamat is Immune to Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning & Poison then she is probably Vulnerable to Force, Necrotic, Psychic, Radiant and Thunder damage.

Or alternatively she might just have one Immunity that randomly changes each turn (in her Chaos/Primordial form).

Under my system Dragon's don't necessarily need Immunity because of Damage Threshold.

A 60HD Ancient Red Dragon with only Fire Resistance and Damage Threshold 18 is effectively Immune to 36 points of Fire damage. Tiamat 120 HD (for 5 headed LE Intermediate Goddess form) would have base Damage Threshold 36, thus 72 for just giving her Resistances if you didn't want all the Vulnerabilities and remember Vulnerability is 'only' +50% in these rules now (recent change after playtesting).

 

[Upper_Krust]

I suppose that Damage Threshold covers some of those situations - U_K, assuming no immunity, I presume resistance first, then Damage Threshold?

Yes.

And where immunities exist, you can't have a resistance to the opposite?

As a rule of thumb I think that works well, I wouldn't call it a hard rule (such as in the case of Tiamat) but each Immunity should have one Vulnerability - it does not always need to be the opposite though.

So if space deals 3d6 fire and 3d6 cold each round (call it average 10 for simplicity, even though slightly higher):

Space deals: 18 Cold, 12 Radiant and 6 Necrotic each turn.

Entity A has fire immunity & cold vulnerability (+50%)
Entity B has fire absorbtion & cold super-vulnerability (+100%)
Both entities have Damage Threshold 10.

Entity A: 0 fire damage, 15 cold damage, less damage threshold 10 = 5 cold damage per round.
Entity B: 10 fire healing, 20 cold damage, less damage threshold 10 = 10 cold damage per round, offset by equal amount of healing.

No. Damage Threshold is not a Reduction. Just a flat number you overcome - much simpler this way.

If Godzilla has Damage Threshold 60 (or whatever) and you deal 60 damage the damage is 0. If you deal 61 damage, the damage is 61. You only exceed the Damage Threshold to do damage.

Space = 18 Cold, 12 Radiant & 6 Necrotic.

Entity A: Is Fire Immune and Cold Vulnerable with Damage Threshold 10

Takes 27 Cold (+50%), 12 radiant and 0 necrotic...overall 39

Entity B: Fire Absorber, Super Cold Vulnerable and Damage Threshold 10

Takes 36 Cold (+100%), 12 radiant and 0 necrotic...overall 48

Entity C: Radiant Absorber, Necrotic Super-Vulnerable (+100%) and Damage Threshold 10

Takes: 18 Cold, heals 12 from radiant, takes 12 from Necrotic...overall 18.

Entity D: Cold Absorber, Radiant Immune, Necrotic Vulnerable and Damage Threshold 10.

Takes: Heals 18 from cold, 0 radiant damage, and Damage Threshold negates the 9 Necrotic...overall HEALS 18 points per turn.

Hope that makes sense?

 

[Upper_Krust]

I would think Asmodeus ought to be able to function unharmed on either frozen or fiery levels of the Nine Hells, for example ... but maybe that could be a separate trait like "No environmental damage can affect Asmodeus while within the Nine Hells"? So he could hang out in the ice of Stygia unharmed but a Cone of Cold spell could still hurt him?

Asmodeus (depends on where you place him)

Lesser Power = 80 Hit Dice
Intermediate Power = 120 Hit Dice (flip-flopping between 120 and 100)
Greater Power = 160 Hit Dice (flip-flopping between 160 and 150)

Lets say Intermediate Power so 120 HD.

Damage Threshold (base): 36

I mean in 5E, being within an Arctic Environment just deals 1d6 damage (2d6 in a blizzard) per hour IF you fail a DC 10 CON save. To me that sounds a bit weak. I remember working in -22 degree Centigrade chillers and I don't think I would survive 30 minutes without the Protective gear. But lets double that for the Ice Plains of the Hells.

Even if we assume they are twice as cold as the Arctic and you take 2d6 if you fail a DC 20 save (4d6 in a Blizzard), even if Asmodeus is Vulnerable to Cold AND fails the save he takes NO damage from the cold because he has Damage Threshold 36 and the Cold damage is not higher than 24 (36 if Vulnerable).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Damage Threshold for Asmodeus might still be the answer - a 90HD Asmodeus ignores 27 points of damage per round, and while Stygia is cold it isn't 5d6 per round (maximized) cold. (I have no idea where U_K would put Asmodeus' HD, so using the approximate HD from Gates of Hell instead.)

I'd maybe make him a Lesser Power 80 Hit Dice, BUT, his Aeshma-Deva form would be 160 Hit Dice and even that would not be his true form, which is a 300 Hit Dice Anti-Seraphim.

Full Form: 300 Hit Dice Old One Anti-Seraphim
Fallen Wounded* Form: 160 Hit Dice Greater God Aeshma Deva
Asmodeus Devil Form: 80 Hit Dice Lesser God

*Took catastrophic wounds that blasted off his wings and dragon head - creating the Death Dragon Telocvovim.

I still quite like my 4th Edition Aeshma-Deva.

U_K, the more I look at the Damage Threshold, the more I like it. Very elegant. I know very little yet, but it makes a lot of sense and simplifies dealing with minor (relatively) threats.

Simplicity is the key to smooth running high level play amigo.

I'm sure out of the 500+ Boons its possible to break the system and get some mad Damage Threshold. Neutronium Form has Bludgeoning, Piercing and Slashing Resistance and your Damage Threshold is Hit Dice x 1.2 - it is Super-Vulnerable to Force and Thunder damage though (IIRC) as the trade off. I mean you need a STR 60 to take the form, 50 for your Mythic Form. If Thor went all in on Strength boons he might be able to get that at the Intermediate God level - effectively giving him Damage Threshold 144 + Resistance to all Physical - in other words he would ignore Physical damage of 288 or less.

 

[therealselah]

I'd maybe make him a Lesser Power 80 Hit Dice, BUT, his Aeshma-Deva form would be 160 Hit Dice and even that would not be his true form, which is a 300 Hit Dice Anti-Seraphim.

Full Form: 300 Hit Dice Old One Anti-Seraphim
Fallen Wounded* Form: 160 Hit Dice Greater God Aeshma Deva
Asmodeus Devil Form: 80 Hit Dice Lesser God

Well, when you release the book I can respond to that with my own thoughts...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Well, when you release the book I can respond to that with my own thoughts...

I think just making the base Asmodeus (Avatar of Aeshma-Deva) a Lesser Power probably makes the politics of the Nine Hells (Ten in my reckoning) more interesting. If all the Archdukes are equal in divine rank then the actual politics of Hell becomes much more of a factor.

originally we had:

Asmodeus leading Geryon and Tiamat
Mephisto leading Mammon and Dispater
Baalzebul, leading Moloch and Belial.

the structure maintained its status quo largely because if one of the other factions attempted to oust Asmodeus the third faction would likely side with Asmodeus to both curry favour and pick up potential spoils.

If we give some different Divine Ranks (which admittedly I did in 3e) then the politics angle gets sidelined and it arguably ruins the most interesting thing about Hell.

 

[therealselah]

I think just making the base Asmodeus (Avatar of Aeshma-Deva) a Lesser Power probably makes the politics of the Nine Hells (Ten in my reckoning) more interesting. If all the Archdukes are equal in divine rank then the actual politics of Hell becomes much more of a factor.

originally we had:

Asmodeus leading Geryon and Tiamat
Mephisto leading Mammon and Dispater
Baalzebul, leading Moloch and Belial.

the structure maintained its status quo largely because if one of the other factions attempted to oust Asmodeus the third faction would likely side with Asmodeus to both curry favour and pick up potential spoils.

If we give some different Divine Ranks (which admittedly I did in 3e) then the politics angle gets sidelined and it arguably ruins the most interesting thing about Hell.

In GoH, we kept the differences but gave the Lords of the Nine increased cosmic rank (effectively divine rank) while on their own layer. That allowed the politics to still play out.

I agree that you can't simply have differences in divine rank and expect the more powerful Lords not to simply take advantage.

 

[Upper_Krust]

In GoH, we kept the differences but gave the Lords of the Nine increased cosmic rank (effectively divine rank) while on their own layer. That allowed the politics to still play out.

I think you could make them all Intermediate Deities - and that might actually make more sense in the context of:

1. The Hells vs. a Pantheon etc.
2. The power of an Archduke vs. The power of a Pit Fiend (CR 20).

That said, my 5e Pit Fiends are CR 12, 16 and 20. CR 16 would be Knights of Hell, CR 20 would be Barons of Hell (slight Doom game reference there). With the Companies of Pit Fiends formed from the CR 12 version, not the CR 20 versions.

If Asmodeus is a CR 28 Lesser Power, he is roughly equivalent to three CR 20 Pit Fiends* which seems a bit rubbish.

*That's three Pit Fiends rebalanced with my rules - not the flimsier Wotc versions of either 5e or 5.5.

However, one issue with boosting them to Intermediate power is that you have to do the same with beings like Orcus and Demogorgon. Again this may well be preferable - in fact the more I consider it the more I like the idea.

However, Lesser Gods (CR 28) are still applicable foes for semi-mortal Godlings (Hero and Quasi-deities) to have a go at. Intermediate Gods (CR 32) probably require full Demigods to take them on.

Typically I'd suggest:
Elite enemies = same rank
Mini-boss = +1 Rank
Boss = +2 Ranks
Solo Boss = +3 Ranks

So if Orcus is Rank 4 you want PCs to be
Rank 1 (to fight him on his own).
Rank 2 ro fight Orcus with some Elite Bodyguards (Lich, Balor, Molydeus, Nightwalker) etc.

The number of Bodyguards equal to the number of PCs minus 1 (or 2 if you want to be generous).

I agree that you can't simply have differences in divine rank and expect the more powerful Lords not to simply take advantage.

Numerically the Demon's should have more deities of each Rank. But the devil's are more organised.

666 Demon Lords
66 Demon Princes
6 Demon Monarchs

99 Dukes of Hell
9 Archdukes

88 Daemon Masters
8 The Diseased Eight

It's possible Asmodeus is the only Intermediate Rank Devil (Lucifer being a Greater God).

Anthraxus/Poxpanus/Famine might be the only Intermediate Daemon in Hades (alongside Hextor/Eris/War and Incabulos/Oizys/Famine), with Nerull/Thanatos/Death a Greater God leading the Horsemen.

No right way to break all this down, but ways maybe make more sense than others.