Going crazy with Limited Wish

[mhd]

The Persistent spell feat is a bit cheesy, IMO. But it got me thinking, I always assumed limited wish does not allow duplication of metamagicked spells, even if they fall within the level limitations of the limited wish. Otherwise it means you can, for example, use Energy Affinity to create a Chain Acid, Cold Strike or otherwise, as required. Any opinions?

Thought that first, too. After all, a metamagiced spell is still a spell of its original level, it just uses a _slot_ of a higher level. But then, Limited Wish isn't limited to straight spells, allows to produce similar _effects_ in line with the power level of the aforementioned spells.

Spells are just the easiest way for the DM to judge the effectiveness of the LW, if you come up with an effect on your own, the DM has to judge it, you might have to negotiate about it, etc. If you just say "I want an effect equivalent to spell blah", no problem.

Although nothing beats a nice, original stroke of genius. The easiest way of immediately getting back your 300 XP

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Allowing spells with metamagic feats attached to them, I think, is not a real problem, as long as you don't say that the original spell level counts not it's metamagical altered one, same rules as with item creation. If they want to have an empowered fireball they can have it.

 

[Otterscrubber]

I think that creating spells with metamagic feats built into them would totally negate the purpose of getting feats in the first place. Unless you made it at least one level higher or something else. Otherwise you have replaced feats entirely, all it takes is gold and some time for a wizard to create the spell. If you have a 7th level quickened fireball in your spellbook, isn't that the exact same thing as having the quickened feat, except you didn't have to use a feat to get it?

Sure people will say that with the feat you can apply it to every spell, not just one or two, but honestly there are probably only a few spells that a wizard is going ot quicken on a regular basis anyway so it's a bit of a wash if you ask me. It's up to the DM to set the level for any spells created in his/her campaign but this sounds broken to me.

Sorry for the interruption, now back to our regularly scheduled thread....

 

[Krafen]

Quench is a great Druid spell to use on those [fire] creatures. There is no defense against it.

It has been pointed out to me that this is incorrect. Quench only damages elemental (fire) creatures. I believe this is a change from 3.0 I missed.

 

[mhd]

I think that creating spells with metamagic feats built into them would totally negate the purpose of getting feats in the first place. Unless you made it at least one level higher or something else. Otherwise you have replaced feats entirely, all it takes is gold and some time for a wizard to create the spell. If you have a 7th level quickened fireball in your spellbook, isn't that the exact same thing as having the quickened feat, except you didn't have to use a feat to get it?

We're not talking about creating spells with built-in metamagic, just using them with a Limited Wish. Wishing for an empowered fireball would be a spell of third level, but a spell effect of fifth level, thus well within the allowance for sorcerer/wizard spells of up to 6th level.

The XP penalty should be enough to grant this as an exception to the rule. I agree that most metamagic/spell combinations shouldn't be allowed for spells. There's no existing spell I know that does 1.5 times caster level d6 damage, so Bob's Empowered Fireball seems without precedent. There's no spell without casting time either, so anything inherently Quickened is out of line, too.

But I digress, it's basically about the Limited Wish, which is able to create effects in line with Wizard 6th level, 5th level something else, so hey, why not?

 

[Black Knight Irios]

There's no spell without casting time either, so anything inherently Quickened is out of line, too.

Am I right if I assume you would not allow lets say a 7th level spell that is as fireball but with a casting time of a free action. I wouldn't understand these spells are already out there.
1st Featherfall, a quickened 1st lvl spell, that can be cast even out of your turn
2nd Scincilating Sphere [MoF], a 3rd lvl spell same as fireball but lightning damage, energy substitution already applied
3rd Delay Blast Fireball, higher damage cap than fireball, but there is a metamagic feat called Delay Spell
...maybe there are more, maybe not

So why disallow such spells too be created, if they are already out there and no one bothers? -This is getting Off-Topic.

 

[mhd]

Am I right if I assume you would not allow lets say a 7th level spell that is as fireball but with a casting time of a free action. I wouldn't understand these spells are already out there.
1st Featherfall, a quickened 1st lvl spell, that can be cast even out of your turn

Call it personal bias, but I think there's a difference between a purely defensive spell like feather fall and a quickened fireball. I'd always allow more leeway for defensive spells than for offensive ones. Featherfall just prevents fall from damaging the caster, not really the realm of powergaming. There shouldn't be a need for a wizard to be able to cast contingency to do that much...

2nd Scincilating Sphere [MoF], a 3rd lvl spell same as fireball but lightning damage, energy substitution already applied

Yeah, one of the most boring designs ever. I mean, from the pure damage aspects there's no difference between Fireball and Lightning Bolt, too. But at least they have a different appearance/area of effect, even though the Bolt lost it's rebound ability...

But yeah, Energy Substitution is probably the easiest feat to justify. After all, there are "Orbs" for everything... And why should your great race of arctic elves all learn fireballs and then substitute it, instead of learning ice balls straight away?

3rd Delay Blast Fireball, higher damage cap than fireball, but there is a metamagic feat called Delay Spell
...maybe there are more, maybe not

Higher damage cap is different from, let's say 1.5 x caster level, I haven't seen the latter in a normal spell yet. Personally, I think a fireball with a little bit more damage and an added delay effect is different enough from a normal fireball to justify a spell of its own. And don't forget that it existed way before anyone thought about metamagic feats

So why disallow such spells too be created, if they are already out there and no one bothers?

I'd disagree that there are that many out there who completely mirror metamagiced spells. Mostly they add their own twist to the mix. Which is just the grain of sand they need to be justified. Magic spells should have a mythic element, not just be plainly built from formulas. (cf. free-form magic systems)

Some metamagic feats are worse than others. Energy substitution borders on the actually usable, though I still think for electricity a line is more evocative than a ball, for fire it's the other way round...

But even quickened spells could be justified, with some additional flavor. What about "Ottos Orbiting Orb of Obliteration", which creates a ball of fire circling around your head and can be commanded to seek a target as a free action? Not quite as powerful as quicken (probably duration 1/minute/level + able to dispel it), but at least it has some of it's blandness removed.

And yeah, we're really getting off-topic. Of course, you could (limited) wish for one of those spells to appear in your spell book, couldn't you?

 

[andargor]

Don't forget that you can use Limited Wish with Scribe Scroll to learn more Arcane spells...

Andargor

 

[Philip]

Don't forget that you can use Limited Wish with Scribe Scroll to learn more Arcane spells...

Andargor

How, the DMG says you have to 'prepared' the spell which is to be scribed. Duplicating a spell with Limited Wish is hardly the same.

 

[andargor]

How, the DMG says you have to 'prepared' the spell which is to be scribed. Duplicating a spell with Limited Wish is hardly the same.

It depends on your interpretation of this:

A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.

The "produces the desired spell effect" may be interpreted as allowing Limited Wish to create the "spell effect" to be scribed. You could also use a Wand, etc.

Andargor