OGL Going Nuclear:1D&D

TheSword

Legend
What 'need' is this move filling for the community?
The need for for a WotC to have security enough to invest in the future of D&D without being people taking advantage of free IP to undercut them. There are lots of people who want to see what WotC can do in the VTT space and there needs to be a viable business model to do so.

Many people aren’t going to trust 3pp they have never heard of, if they have come to the game through the D&d brand and it’s absolutely right that WOtC have a place in that space unless they want to become obsolete.
 
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TheSword

Legend
I don't really care if it's personal or not. People aren't out here complaining that Hasbro hurt their feelings. I also don't really care whether they are "doing their best." I don't know what's in their hearts, I just know their actions.

Whether or not corporations as a whole are bad isn't really the issue, either. This isn't a generalized topic. We're talking about one specific corporation and their specific decision-making. They would not have the broad reach that they have if they weren't a large corporation. They likely also would not be making the decisions they are currently making if they weren't a large corporation. Their size and their structure isn't something we can ignore when we talk about this specific topic.

As consumers, we are not beholden to shareholders. We don't owe them allegiance. We can choose to spend elsewhere. The bigger question is whether we, as hobbyists, want our community to be so easily upturned by one corporation.
That’s the risk when those 3pp base their businesses on the product of another business. Of course they then become affected by it. That not just the fault of WOTC but of the 3pp that made their business models so dependent on their business model. They made the most of a free opportunity to make money and now when WoTC now fee they’re getting the stickier end of the stick and are pulling back, 3pp are crying foul.

This happens in business relationships all the time. A deal is struck, it works for a while and then it stops working for one side. At that point you either re-negotiate and reach a new compromise that benefits both, or one or more parties walls away.

I’ve already been told by one poster that had this 1.1 deal been offered back in the 90’s instead of OGL 1.0 folks would have said it was a massive step for the community. “No royalties until over £750k wow! You can use the IP to produce books and PDFs!!! Double wow.”
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
The need for for a WotC to have security enough to invest in the future of D&D without being people taking advantage of free IP to undercut them
So not the community at all.

Edit: Also that 'viable business model' is how they got big and cocky enough to try and pull this in the first place.
 

TheSword

Legend
So not the community at all.

Yes a proportion of community. There is a big section of the community that aren’t interested in 3pp. I’m sorry to say but there just is. When our group played Pathfinder we just didn’t engage with 90% of the 3pp also making Pathfinder add one and supplements out there because we had been burnt by some products that were just frankly ridiculous - so we trusted the Paizo brand and stuck to their stuff… over time Paizo got out of control too and then we switched back to the tighter D&D 5e.

Even now we will play 3pp adventures but as a general rule we don’t use any 3pp game rules (Character options etc) because we just can’t trust the quality and balance so we stick to WoTC. That’s one of the things a brand is for.

So yes, there is a need for a D&D branded VTT platform for some people. Now whether WotC can meet that need remains to be seen.
Edit: Also that 'viable business model' is how they got big and cocky enough to try and pull this in the first place.
The VTT space is not the same as the RPG and is an investment risk. It will require a huge amount of money to develop and you don’t go into that without building a viable model unless you are an idiot, or have nothing to lose.
 


Bluebell

Explorer
The need for for a WotC to have security enough to invest in the future of D&D without being people taking advantage of free IP to undercut them. There are lots of people who want to see what WotC can do in the VTT space and there needs to be a viable business model to do so.

Many people aren’t going to trust 3pp they have never heard of, if they have come to the game through the D&d brand and it’s absolutely right that WOtC have a place in that space unless they want to become obsolete.
That may be good for WotC but I disagree that that's what's best for the community. I think it's a bad idea for one company to control the content and the medium. I would rather see system-agnostic VTTs continue to grow.

That’s the risk when those 3pp base their businesses on the product of another business. Of course they then become affected by it. That not just the fault of WOTC but of the 3pp that made their business models so dependent on their business model. They made the most of a free opportunity to make money and now when WoTC now fee they’re getting the stickier end of the stick and are pulling back, 3pp are crying foul.
I don't agree that WotC has suffered from the existence of 3pp. The sheer amount of extra content created by people, many of them independently as a hobby, is part of what has driven the success of DnD. Hardly anybody is buying a homebrew setting pdf instead of WotC sourcebooks, but more likely to supplement them.

This happens in business relationships all the time. A deal is struck, it works for a while and then it stops working for one side. At that point you either re-negotiate and reach a new compromise that benefits both, or one or more parties walls away.
Yes, so some people here are discussing whether they might also choose to walk away.
 

Daztur

Adventurer
It cracks me up. This forum has been 80% D&D 5e for the last 3-5 years. I’ve lost track of the number of people who have said they can’t find Folks to play any other game than 5e.

Basically if all the people that say they’re boycotting 5e and One D&D, actual do… then it’s going to be awfully quiet around here.

I don't think most people are talking about never playing D&D again, Hasbro doesn't give a flying naughty word if I play D&D so stopping playing it if it's fun for me serves no useful purpose. I will, however, make sure that I don't give Hasbro more money, which isn't necessary to play D&D and which they very much do care about.
 

Art Waring

halozix.com
The need for for a WotC to have security enough to invest in the future of D&D without being people taking advantage of free IP to undercut them
The OGL never covered IP, nobody could ever use wotc trademarks or any Intellectual Property, thats part of the agreement of the license.

You could even claim compatability with dnd if you don't use the OGL, you seem not to have read the OGL and what it means to 3pp's.
 

TheSword

Legend
The OGL never covered IP, nobody could ever use wotc trademarks or any Intellectual Property, thats part of the agreement of the license.

You could even claim compatability with dnd if you don't use the OGL, you seem not to have read the OGL and what it means to 3pp's.
There are lots of grey areas and crossovers that the OGL does cover. It isn’t just beholders and flumphs. There seems to be an idea that anything mechanical can’t be copyrighted and some people seem to think this covers things like hit points. I’m not going to get into a debate about it they a mechanic are are they an expression of a mechanic. The mechanics can’t be copyrighted itself is untested in RPGs as has been discussed. I’m sure WotC would aim for a wide net of IP.

To my mind. You shouldn’t be able to make a clone of D&D without WotC’s permission now that they have revoked their consent. That’s just where I stand on it. I know lots of people disagree with me, but that also has been done to death to.
 
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mamba

Hero
The need for for a WotC to have security enough to invest in the future of D&D without being people taking advantage of free IP to undercut them. There are lots of people who want to see what WotC can do in the VTT space and there needs to be a viable business model to do so.
and, oh, I don’t know, just releasing a great VTT is not enough for that? You must make competition inpossible?

Many people aren’t going to trust 3pp they have never heard of, if they have come to the game through the D&d brand and it’s absolutely right that WOtC have a place in that space unless they want to become obsolete.
that sounds like an argument for not needing more than that
 

mamba

Hero
That’s the risk when those 3pp base their businesses on the product of another business. Of course they then become affected by it. That not just the fault of WOTC but of the 3pp that made their business models so dependent on their business model.
and by ‘business model’ you mean ‘an actual contract that WotC told them was irrevocable’
 

mamba

Hero
There seems to be an idea that anything mechanical can’t be copyrighted and some people seem to think this covers things like hit points.
oh, there is no doubt hit points are not covered…

To my mind. You shouldn’t be able to make a clone of D&D without WotC’s permission now that they have revoked their consent.
they cannot revoke consent, there is a binding license. Anything else requires a court to sort out, but they clearly said it is irrevocable and now they shove 3pps under the bus because they think those are to weak to do anything about it. Nothing else is happening here
 


TheSword

Legend
and by ‘business model’ you mean ‘an actual contract that WotC told them was irrevocable’

oh, there is no doubt hit points are not covered…


they cannot revoke consent, there is a binding license. Anything else requires a court to sort out, but they clearly said it is irrevocable and now they shove 3pps under the bus because they think those are to weak to do anything about it. Nothing else is happening here

Kobold Press is not trying to violate a contract because the other party does not have enough money to fight it
I’m glad you’re so certain of the law. WotC has compromised. If 3pp want to clone D&D and refuse to budge, I guess we’ll find out if you’re right. With all the consequences that brings.
 



Micah Sweet

Legend
There are lots of grey areas and crossovers that the OGL does cover. It isn’t just beholders and flumphs. There seems to be an idea that anything mechanical can’t be copyrighted and some people seem to think this covers things like hit points. I’m not going to get into a debate about it they a mechanic are are they an expression of a mechanic. The mechanics can’t be copyrighted itself is untested in RPGs as has been discussed. I’m sure WotC would aim for a wide net of IP.

To my mind. You shouldn’t be able to make a clone of D&D without WotC’s permission now that they have revoked their consent. That’s just where I stand on it. I know lots of people disagree with me, but that also has been done to death to.
They haven't revoked their consent yet, and in my opinion, they don't have that right.
 


Art Waring

halozix.com
To my mind. You shouldn’t be able to make a clone of D&D without WotC’s permission now that they have revoked their consent. That’s just where I stand on it. I know lots of people disagree with me, but that also has been done to death to.
It was a mutual agreement for more than twenty years. That's good faith broken on a scale that is to me pretty severe. Seeing the damage inflicted on small businesses is something I guess you are ok with.
 


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