D&D (2024) Gold & Other Treasure (Can we get off the treadmill?)

[tetrasodium]

).


I suspect DEFCON 1 knows this. Their position is that it doesn't matter how horrific or non-horrific the rules are if people are just going to ignore them anyways.

That is an unreasonable position because the rules present themselves with a plain reading that appears incredibly explicit to the players in a way that hurls the GM under the hate bus by setting the stage that make the GM come off as if they are acting hostile and adversarial.

"Well how would you fix it" is also a harmful position that reveals how indefensible the rules are here by not even bothering to mention the bus being driven over the gm at the same time it sweeps the problem under the rug in order to switch the focus of attention elsewhere long enough to help maintain the bue position

 

[DEFCON 1]

That is an unreasonable position because the rules present themselves with a plain reading that appears incredibly explicit to the players in a way that hurls the GM under the hate bus by setting the stage that make the GM come off as if they are acting hostile and adversarial.

"Well how would you fix it" is also a harmful position that reveals how indefensible the rules are here by not even bothering to mention the bus being driven over the gm at the same time it sweeps the problem under the rug in order to switch the focus of attention elsewhere long enough to help maintain the bue position

I personally do not agree with your premise that the game craps on DMs. Or that DMs need protecting from their players.

However that being said... If you believe it to be true and you wish to continue to fight for beleaguered DMs on their behalf to hopefully get WotC to help them out in the 5E24 books... more power to you. Fight the good fight and maybe you'll see some positive changes.

 

[tetrasodium]

I personally do not agree with your premise that the game craps on DMs. Or that DMs need protecting from their players.

However that being said... If you believe it to be true and you wish to continue to fight for beleaguered DMs on their behalf to hopefully get WotC to help them out in the 5E24 books... more power to you. Fight the good fight and maybe you'll see some positive changes.

Like I said, the question diverts attention away from the problem and actively hides it away

Do the rules present a complex and nebulous set of interactions as an apparently simply and clearly defined thing? How would you fix it can shove that under the rug

Do the rules seemingly pave the way for Skyrim and fallout style stealth shenanigans? How would you fix it can shove that under the rug

Do the rules offload things they should be lifting for the GM'S shoulders in order to avoid sharing their weight with players? How would you fix it can shove that under the rug

Do the rules treat the gm unfairly? How would you fix it can shove that under the rug

So on and so forth

 

[Micah Sweet]

Like I said, the question diverts attention away from the problem and actively hides it away

Do the rules present a complex and nebulous set of interactions as an apparently simply and clearly defined thing? How would you fix it can shove that under the rug

Do the rules seemingly pave the way for Skyrim and fallout style stealth shenanigans? How would you fix it can shove that under the rug

Do the rules offload things they should be lifting for the GM'S shoulders in order to avoid sharing their weight with players? How would you fix it can shove that under the rug

Do the rules treat the gm unfairly? How would you fix it can shove that under the rug

So on and so forth

What other option is there though? We all have our own tables, and what we do there is all that matters, not what other tables do or what WotC chooses to design and publish. I will never understand why some folks are so insistent on using and complaining about rules they don't like simply because WotC produced them, when there are so many alternatives without even leaving 5e. There are tons of mechanical aspects of WotC 5e that don't suit my preference. When I encounter one, I look for another way, either through 3pp or my own homebrew.

Edit: sorry. Forgot what thread I was posting in.

 

[Lanefan]

Why must they spend it at all? Why can’t the game just go on?

Because deciding whether to spend that money, and then deciding what to spend it on, is part of the game - which means the game is going on when these things are being done.

The game is more than just one adventure after the next.

 

[Lanefan]

Yeah, that's bad design. A Ring of Swimming is not going to help fighting a monster that can only be hurt with magic weapons.

Why is that bad design?

The dungeon needs to be designed so that, at the point that monsters that require magical weapons are a regular occurrence, most members of an average-sized party that need magical weapons to hit their targets (in other words, the warlocks, wizards and sorcerers wouldn't have them yet) would have them, if they had done an average job of clearing the dungeon and searching for magic items.

Again, why? There's no reason for the dungeon itself to have to supply such things (I don't subscribe to the theatre theory that says any prop on stage must come into use during the play), nor that every obstacle a dungeon presents be beatable by every group of PCs. Maybe the party just have to go elsewhere (or back to town) and find some magic weapons before proceeding further, or have to accept failure on this mission.

This to me is a different issue than situations where a single unique item or clue is required in order to proceed and there's no other possible workaround. Here the dungeon (or setting) does need to provide the answer in some form...even if the PCs then go on to sell or destroy said answer before it becomes essential (seen this happen many a time!).

To encourage groups to search for them, there should probably be a guardian between the area where mundane weapons are fine and where magical weapons are required that will stay tethered in their chamber but absolutely not be beatable without magic weapons. Don't let the PCs wander into a place where they're going to slaughtered because they're not properly geared up yet.

If they wander into somewhere they're gonna get slaughtered and aren't wise enough to run away, that's on them.

 

[payn]

Because deciding whether to spend that money, and then deciding what to spend it on, is part of the game - which means the game is going on when these things are being done.

The game is more than just one adventure after the next.

Not anymore.

 

[James Gasik]

Why is that bad design?

Again, why? There's no reason for the dungeon itself to have to supply such things (I don't subscribe to the theatre theory that says any prop on stage must come into use during the play), nor that every obstacle a dungeon presents be beatable by every group of PCs. Maybe the party just have to go elsewhere (or back to town) and find some magic weapons before proceeding further, or have to accept failure on this mission.

This to me is a different issue than situations where a single unique item or clue is required in order to proceed and there's no other possible workaround. Here the dungeon (or setting) does need to provide the answer in some form...even if the PCs then go on to sell or destroy said answer before it becomes essential (seen this happen many a time!).

If they wander into somewhere they're gonna get slaughtered and aren't wise enough to run away, that's on them.

It's worth noting that there was a section of the dungeon where the ability to swim came in handy. As for the scarcity of magic weapons, I think some of this comes down to it being a canned adventure and thus there's no real expectation of what kinds of weapons players will need, let alone how many. If level 1 had included multiple "+1 magic weapon of choice" options, my party would have had less of a bad time, but it might have been superfluous for a group with a pair of Moon Druids and two Sorcerers. Resistance to nonmagic weapons is just a terrible mechanic; it's crippling until it isn't, and then it's a complete non-factor. I'd much prefer resistance to specific types of damage be more common, so it would behoove you to carry around a bludgeoning weapon, a piercing weapon, and a slashing weapon.

 

[Lanefan]

Okay, well then as a thought-experiment... how about you come up with a set of Stealth rules that you think are exactly the sort of thing WotC should have put in the 5E14 book beyond the basic rules they gave us, post those rules here on the boards and tell folks that this is exactly what the Stealth rules for D&D 5E should be... and then see what the reactions are that you get to them. I'm fairly certain 9 out of every 10 people will tell you exactly why your rules don't work at all, or at minimum ask for a handful of changes to them so that they'd be useful (in general, or just for them.)

Oh, I've no doubt that whatever I came up with would be thoroughly shredded on the boards here. And you know what? That's OK. Provided the criticism was constructive and came with proposed alternatives, whatever I dreamed up could (and maybe would) become just a starting point for thought and design rather than any sort of end product.

That said, redesigning the 5e stealth system is a lo-ong way down my priority list; so don't hold yer breath waiting to see it here

While you're at it... write up a Warlord class, a Psion class, and an 'Arcane Half-Caster' class that you think are a-okay and post those here too and see how people react.

You couldn't pay me enough to write up a Warlord. A Psion, maybe, though it'd be a huge amount of work in that to do it right would IMO require designing a completely new and bespoke magic (and, probably, psionic combat) system to go with it. Let's just say that my version of a Psion would not play nice with unified mechanics.

Arcane Half-Caster? Where would be the difference between that and just playing an arcane/martial multiclass?

 

[James Gasik]

Arcane Half-Caster? Where would be the difference between that and just playing an arcane/martial multiclass?

What's the difference between a Paladin and a Cleric/Fighter multiclass?