D&D (2024) Gold & Other Treasure (Can we get off the treadmill?)

[James Gasik]

Almost certainly I think. Diku MUDs trace back to things like MUCKs MUSHs & so forth till you start getting to zork. Then before private network access was really a thing for people not inventing the internet you had various single player floppy based text games. At some point you start bleeding into what was probably some level of parallel development & cross pollination in both directions (ttrpg/compter games) pulling from Tolkien & the other appendix N books. Heck didn't hit points come from a civil war era wargame called ironsides or something with war games for a very niche hobby going back centuries prior?

I was just thinking of the time I played DikuMUSH...2...I think it was back in the 90's, and the game had a very D&D aesthetic with classes and races. But D&D is so ingrained with "modern fantasy settings" that pinpointing influences is tricky; if, for example, a game takes inspiration from Wizardry, Bards Tale, or Ultima, three major games that had huge D&D influences, do we then say that the game takes influence from D&D?

 

[tetrasodium]

I was just thinking of the time I played DikuMUSH...2...I think it was back in the 90's, and the game had a very D&D aesthetic with classes and races. But D&D is so ingrained with "modern fantasy settings" that pinpointing influences is tricky; if, for example, a game takes inspiration from Wizardry, Bards Tale, or Ultima, three major games that had huge D&D influences, do we then say that the game takes influence from D&D?

Yea that makes it tricky, some of the things I mentioned date back to the 70s with even earlier things they evolved from though DIKU was like 90 or 91 & I think zork was 77 if I'm remembering the dates in the earlier wikipedia links right without double checking

 

[Willie the Duck]

Almost certainly I think. Diku MUDs trace back to things like MUCKs MUSHs & so forth till you start getting to zork. Then before private network access was really a thing for people not inventing the internet you had various single player floppy based text games. At some point you start bleeding into what was probably some level of parallel development & cross pollination in both directions (ttrpg/compter games) pulling from Tolkien & the other appendix N books. Heck didn't hit points come from a civil war era wargame called ironsides or something with war games for a very niche hobby going back centuries prior?

Zork was from '77, and took a lot of inspiration from the '75/'76 game Dungeon, which itself had pretty clear oD&D inspiration. There's a reasonably strong line going from oD&D through proto-MUDs to Diku and UO to modern MMOs. There's also a strong line from AD&D to Final Fantasy to a lot of modern gaming tropes. Modern computer/video games have a strand of D&D DNA in their pedigree. None of that should be seen as dismissing the massive amounts of developments Diku or its' spiritual successors have themselves contributed to the MMO genre (ones' ancestor does not get credit for all of one's accomplishments, after all). Nor does it really answer James' question about whether Diku or something remarkably similar would have come to be if D&D hadn't existed. Honestly, probably, but that's kind of like those 'would TTRPGs have become a thing/what would they look like if D&D hadn't been published?'-type questions. We just don't know what would have happened instead.

 

[Yora]

Treasure is the most important thing in the game.

It's a big failing of 5e design that it gives no good places or reasons to spend it.

The main issue with 5th edition is that it insists on keeping the elements that defined the game in the 70s and 80s, while having discarded all the structures that gave them purpose.

 

[payn]

The main issue with 5th edition is that it insists on keeping the elements that defined the game in the 70s and 80s, while having discarded all the structures that gave them purpose.

Feature.

 

[tetrasodium]

The main issue with 5th edition is that it insists on keeping the elements that defined the game in the 70s and 80s, while having discarded all the structures that gave them purpose.

And critically failing to create new structures to fill those missing purposes for the GM.

 

[Demetrios1453]

Where do you think the inspiration for MMO's came from?

WoW's Azeroth is such a '90s D&D kitchen sink setting that it's pretty obviously at least partially derived from someone's or someones' D&D campaigns (presumably Chris Metzen's at the very least).

 

[Demetrios1453]

One thing that really needs to be done to deal with this is some stronghold rules, especially costs. Lots of players want a cool castle/wizards tower/temple/etc for their characters, and supplying rules on how to construct and pay for them (and pay for upkeep) would be a good use for all the gold the characters are basically swimming in even after a few levels. Heck, even including normal house/land prices would be helpful - at low levels having a nice, but fairly modest, place for the group as a whole to have as a base is something most groups would want. Dragon Heist did this to a point with the tavern the party could take over and run, with living space upstairs (but, oddly, with no privies or bathrooms) and neighbors who could sell some minor magic items, but it was kind of a one-off and really didn't get into the details of how characters and parties could purchase a place of their own outside of this adventure. Even a small section with some prices in one of the core books would be very helpful here.

 

[MichaelSomething]

This is why I advocate for bringing back expensive spell components! It does double duty as a gold sink and spell limiter!

 

[James Gasik]

This is why I advocate for bringing back expensive spell components! It does double duty as a gold sink and spell limiter!

What about non-casters?