payn
Glory to Marik
I do it in the social and exploration pillar. Its not just dungeon delving and killing things or character development.
Im not playing to simulate real life.
I think this kind of thing is best left to campaign books and settings.
D&D 5E (2024) Gold & Other Treasure (Can we get off the treadmill?)
- Thread starter MGibster
- Start date
Alzrius
The EN World kitten
The mechanics have already been linked up, but for it to actually work in play at the table it takes a somewhat different mindset from both sides of the gm screen & fate does a great job talking about the hows & whys behind that mindset. I don't think that it could be easily grafted onto d&d and still have it feel like d&d without a lot of other changes but here are some good quotes from the fate core book about that mindset
Skills and Specific Measurements
Looking over the skill descriptions, you might notice that there are a few
places where we give an abstraction for something that in real life depends
on precise measurement. Physique and Resources are strong examples—
many people who are into strength training have some idea of how much
weight they can dead lift, and people spend specific amounts of money
from a finite pool when they buy things.
So how much can a character with Great (+4) Physique bench press? How
much can a character with Fair (+2) Resources spend before going broke?
The truth is, we have no idea, and we’re reluctant to pursue a specific
answer.
Though it may seem counter-intuitive, we find that creating minutiae
like that detracts from the verisimilitude of the game in play. As soon as
you establish a detail like, “Great Physique can dead lift a car for five sec-
onds,” then you’re cutting out a lot of the variability that real life allows.
Adrenaline and other factors allow people to reach beyond their normal
physical limits or fall short of them—you can’t factor every one of those
things in without having it take up a large amount of focus at the table.
It becomes a thing for people to discuss and even argue about, rather than
participating in the scene.
It’s also boring. If you decide that a Fair (+2) Resources can buy anything
that’s 200 gold pieces or less, then you’ve removed a great deal of potential
for tension and drama. Suddenly, every time you have a Resources-based
problem, it’s going to hinge on the question of whether or not the cost is
200 gold pieces, rather than whatever the point of the scene is. It also turns
everything into a simple pass/fail situation, which means you don’t really
have a good reason to roll the skill at all. And again, this is not realistic—
when people spend money, it’s not about the raw dollar amount as much as
it is a question of what someone can presently afford.
Remember, a skill roll is a narrative tool, meant to answer the following
question: “Can I solve X problem using Y means, right now?” When you
get an unexpected result, use your sense of realism and drama to explain and
justify it, using our guidelines above. “Oh, you failed that Resources roll to
bribe the guard? Guess you spent just a bit more at the tavern last night than
you thought... wait, why is your belt pouch gone? And who’s that shady
character walking a little too quickly just past the line of guards? Did he just
wink at you? That bastard... now what do you do?”
LiMiting resources
if someone is using the Resources skill a bit too often, or you just
want to represent how continually tapping into your source of
wealth provides diminishing returns, you can try one of the follow-
ing ideas:
• any time a character succeeds at a Resources roll, but doesn’t
succeed with style, give them a situation aspect that reflects
their temporary loss of wealth, like Thin Wallet or Strapped for
Cash. if it happens again, just rename the aspect as something
worse—Strapped for Cash becomes Dead Broke, Dead Broke
becomes Debt to Creditors. the aspect is not a consequence,
but it should make good compel fodder for characters who are
shopping until they drop. it can go away if the character takes a
break from spending cash, or at the end of the session.
• every time the character succeeds at a Resources roll, decrease
the skill by one level for the remainder of that session. if they
succeed at a Resources roll at mediocre (+0), they can no longer
make any Resources rolls that session.
if you really want to get crazy, you can make finances a category
of conflict and give each character a wealth stress track, giving them
extra stress boxes for having a high Resources, but we don’t recom-
mend going that far unless you plan on making material wealth a
major part of your game.
Looking over the skill descriptions, you might notice that there are a few
places where we give an abstraction for something that in real life depends
on precise measurement. Physique and Resources are strong examples—
many people who are into strength training have some idea of how much
weight they can dead lift, and people spend specific amounts of money
from a finite pool when they buy things.
So how much can a character with Great (+4) Physique bench press? How
much can a character with Fair (+2) Resources spend before going broke?
The truth is, we have no idea, and we’re reluctant to pursue a specific
answer.
Though it may seem counter-intuitive, we find that creating minutiae
like that detracts from the verisimilitude of the game in play. As soon as
you establish a detail like, “Great Physique can dead lift a car for five sec-
onds,” then you’re cutting out a lot of the variability that real life allows.
Adrenaline and other factors allow people to reach beyond their normal
physical limits or fall short of them—you can’t factor every one of those
things in without having it take up a large amount of focus at the table.
It becomes a thing for people to discuss and even argue about, rather than
participating in the scene.
It’s also boring. If you decide that a Fair (+2) Resources can buy anything
that’s 200 gold pieces or less, then you’ve removed a great deal of potential
for tension and drama. Suddenly, every time you have a Resources-based
problem, it’s going to hinge on the question of whether or not the cost is
200 gold pieces, rather than whatever the point of the scene is. It also turns
everything into a simple pass/fail situation, which means you don’t really
have a good reason to roll the skill at all. And again, this is not realistic—
when people spend money, it’s not about the raw dollar amount as much as
it is a question of what someone can presently afford.
Remember, a skill roll is a narrative tool, meant to answer the following
question: “Can I solve X problem using Y means, right now?” When you
get an unexpected result, use your sense of realism and drama to explain and
justify it, using our guidelines above. “Oh, you failed that Resources roll to
bribe the guard? Guess you spent just a bit more at the tavern last night than
you thought... wait, why is your belt pouch gone? And who’s that shady
character walking a little too quickly just past the line of guards? Did he just
wink at you? That bastard... now what do you do?”
LiMiting resources
if someone is using the Resources skill a bit too often, or you just
want to represent how continually tapping into your source of
wealth provides diminishing returns, you can try one of the follow-
ing ideas:
• any time a character succeeds at a Resources roll, but doesn’t
succeed with style, give them a situation aspect that reflects
their temporary loss of wealth, like Thin Wallet or Strapped for
Cash. if it happens again, just rename the aspect as something
worse—Strapped for Cash becomes Dead Broke, Dead Broke
becomes Debt to Creditors. the aspect is not a consequence,
but it should make good compel fodder for characters who are
shopping until they drop. it can go away if the character takes a
break from spending cash, or at the end of the session.
• every time the character succeeds at a Resources roll, decrease
the skill by one level for the remainder of that session. if they
succeed at a Resources roll at mediocre (+0), they can no longer
make any Resources rolls that session.
if you really want to get crazy, you can make finances a category
of conflict and give each character a wealth stress track, giving them
extra stress boxes for having a high Resources, but we don’t recom-
mend going that far unless you plan on making material wealth a
major part of your game.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
It really, really can vary. It takes some work, but you absolutely can make a workable economy in D&D type games. It's been done.Good riddance. Give me adventure not ledger maintenance.
I've never really seen the point of cost and upkeep tables other than to gate items from PCs, and/or make them a PITA to maintain. This isnt a D&D thing either, I dont like in any RPG I have played. I take that back, I dont mind it in video games for time sink, but table time is more valuable and Id rather spend it on adventure. The simulation take isnt convincing either as economies never make sense in D&D. YMMV.
To be frank, the "adventure only" style you're advocating would bore me to tears quite quickly. It encourages treating the setting like the flavor text of a board game, and setting is very, very important to my enjoyment of RPGs.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
You've got to ratchet up the difficulty of "challenging" encounters, but it's not like you can't do that.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Campaign books and settings are part of the game, just as much as "adventuring". Not being able to buy anything you want is not the same thing "simulating real life".
Sure but doing that is going to have a dramatically different impact from class to class. Countering that core design problem isn't hard, it's all the cracks & stress fractures that start forming as a result of that countering
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
You're not wrong, but short of a new game that's what you gotta do if you want what WotC deemed "optional" to be a significant part of the game.
MGibster
Legend
I feel as though we're still on that treadmill except it doesn't serve the same function any longer. After a few levels, gold is no longer particularly useful in regards to improving your ability to adventure. But for some reason adventurers are still being rewarded with fat stacks of loot for adventuring. In most D&D campaigns, there's not a whole lot to siphon money off the players. We've had a few people chime in here telling us how gold has been put to use building keeps or doing other things, but I don't believe that's the norm. And if we're going to keep creating adventures where PCs get a good amount of treasure, the creators of the game need to make sure there's something to do with that gold by default.
MGibster
Legend
Personally, I'm really only interested in an economy that's workable from an adventuring point of view. I don't particularly care if it make sense when looking at it through another lens. When I'm feeling a bit cheeky, I sometimes handwave it away by telling the PCs the prices reflect the adventurer's tax they all pay. "You'd be insulted if they tried selling you something at a reasonable price. So you're going to pay a gold for that wine and be happy."
