D&D 5E Goliaths WebDM Misses the Mark, but Sparks My Curiosity

[Fenris-77]

As a big fan of sarcasm and snide comments generally I still feel like agreeing with Ruin Explorer here. Dropping 'goliaths suck so why bother' into a thread about making Goliaths more interesting seems more than just counter-productive.

Moving on, as I mentioned previously I'm going to try out some of the ideas from here in my next campaign. At the mo that's would probably be survival proficiency and 2/SR Endurance and maybe cold resistance. Am I forgetting something cool?

 

[Chaosmancer]

I'm honestly staggered that some people don't get why a cool-looking massive, super strong and athletic race who don't have a history of being horrible dirtbags and aren't a furry archetype are cool and fairly popular.

I've seen them regularly as PCs since 4E.

It's a very basic He-Man/cool Barbarian/ahistorical Spartan-type fantasy.

I see people calling them vanilla and stuff, but that's the point. Not everyone is like me or you. Not everyone wants a race with a dark and complex history or menacing lore or who looks bizarre. Some people just want a big strong guy from a simple warrior culture who isn't a monster or weird. I feel like people who don't get it aren't trying very hard.

Re: Warforged, I think that is the closest crossover with other races but WF have a very specific history and aren't quite as easy to drop into settings, nor are they huge and in 5Es actual Eberron release they lost the stuff that made them close mechanically.

I would make a point that the Goliath's lore is actually prety dark by RAW. They are a warrior culture in which might makes right, and they abandon the weak and sick to die. In fact, they often seek out things that can kill them while they are young, so that they do not feel the infirmities of age.

That's really dark. And about the only Lore they have. So, when you cut that out you have "big and strong and live in mountains" which isn't really enough to grab onto and make a culture out of.

Moving on, as I mentioned previously I'm going to try out some of the ideas from here in my next campaign. At the mo that's would probably be survival proficiency and 2/SR Endurance and maybe cold resistance. Am I forgetting something cool?

Mechanically that sounds fine.

Lore is the hard part.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

This seems unhelpful and like it rather proves my point re no effort to understand. Indeed it appears you're actively making an effort not to get it, and to be as snide as possible.

Your points where highly subjective: cool looking? How? Why? What is cool? They look pretty much like large grey skinned humans. If you think large grey skinned humans = cool looking then good on you, but it's hardly an objective point.

Massive: categorically false. 71/2 feet isn't massive. Godzilla is massive, 71/2 feet is quite tall.

I used to play a half-ogre back in my 1st edition days, so I understand the appeal of playing hulking characters. And goliaths simply don't have that appeal.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Your points where highly subjective: cool looking? How? Why? What is cool? They look pretty much like large grey skinned humans. If you think large grey skinned humans = cool looking then good on you, but it's hardly an objective point.

Massive: categorically false. 71/2 feet isn't massive. Godzilla is massive, 71/2 feet is quite tall.

I used to play a half-ogre back in my 1st edition days, so I understand the appeal of playing hulking characters. And goliaths simply don't have that appeal.

And the point-proving continues. You complain about subjectivity whilst making wildly subjective statements, engage in genuinely shameful semantics, and finish off by telling other people that they don't actually like the thing they like for the reason they've stated because you know better than them! Which is some extreme "Internet Denizen" stuff.

The point you're proving is that some people who "don't understand" the appeal are making somewhere between zero or actual negative effort into understanding. Your posts don't represent an effort to get it. They represent an active effort avoid getting it, hence the complaints of subjectivity (which the appeal of every single race is) and sad semantics, which are the opposite of attempts to understand.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

And the point-proving continues. You complain about subjectivity whilst making wildly subjective statements, engage in genuinely shameful semantics, and finish off by telling other people that they don't actually like the thing they like for the reason they've stated because you know better than them! Which some extreme "Internet Denizen" stuff.

The point you're proving is that some people who "don't understand" the appeal are making somewhere between zero or actual negative effort into understanding. Your posts don't represent an effort to get it. They represent an active effort avoid getting it, hence the complaints of subjectivity (which the appeal of every single race is) and sad semantics, which are the opposite of attempts to understand.

Resorting to stroppy name-calling doesn't make you justification of goliaths any more convincing. If someone "doesn't understand" your point, maybe it isn't a very good point, or maybe you haven't made it convincingly? Don't blame other people for your own failings.

TBH my biggest objection to goliaths is their biblical name. If they where called something setting-appropriate I would shift from dislike to neutrality. Give them a hulk-like body shape* and I might even start to like them, it's all very subjective.


*Does anyone else remember the "male", "female" and "huge" body types from City of Heroes MMO?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Resorting to stroppy name-calling doesn't make you justification of goliaths any more convincing. If someone "doesn't understand" your point, maybe it isn't a very good point, or maybe you haven't made it convincingly? Don't blame other people for your own failings.

TBH my biggest objection to goliaths is their biblical name. If they where called something setting-appropriate I would shift from dislike to neutrality. Give them a hulk-like body shape* and I might even start to like them, it's all very subjective.


*Does anyone else remember the "male", "female" and "huge" body types from City of Heroes MMO?

To understand something, both sides need to make some kind of effort, and if one person just wants to sneer, snark, and engage in meaningless semantics (which actually hinder communication), then that person is at fault, even if they aren't happy to be called on it. I've been that person before. Also, you don't get to complain about "name-calling" (which I don't think my criticism was) whilst calling someone "stroppy", as I think you know.

That said, in the name of communication and understanding, when I get to my proper computer later I'll outline, point by point, the appeal of Goliaths and you can let me know if it makes any sense to you.

I do agree that they have a dumb name!

 

[Urriak Uruk]

To understand something, both sides need to make some kind of effort, and if one person just wants to sneer, snark, and engage in meaningless semantics (which actually hinder communication), then that person is at fault, even if they aren't happy to be called on it. I've been that person before. Also, you don't get to complain about "name-calling" (which I don't think my criticism was) whilst calling someone "stroppy", as I think you know.

That said, in the name of communication and understanding, when I get to my proper computer later I'll outline, point by point, the appeal of Goliaths and you can let me know if it makes any sense to you.

I do agree that they have a dumb name!

Tbf you seemed to start it by saying he was being snide.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Tbf you seemed to start it by saying he was being snide.

Fair enough. Anyway, I'll numbered list Goliath appeal in a bit. Personally I'm not actually a fan, but I know players who are.

 

[Fenris-77]

That's really dark. And about the only Lore they have. So, when you cut that out you have "big and strong and live in mountains" which isn't really enough to grab onto and make a culture out of.

Mechanically that sounds fine.

Lore is the hard part.

Yeah, I have some stuff roughed out. This is for Goliaths as-is. not expanded to be descended form all manner of giants. This is an off the cuff first draft, criticism welcome...

A thousand years ago there was a secret war, a war for Faerun's coldest and most isolated mountain peaks. Frost Giants, pushed out of lower mountain ranges by expanding human empires, battled against the Oni and their minions for control of of the highest peaks. The Frost Giants were winning until the the Oni struck an awful deal with a creature from the Abyss. The Oni were granted the power to create a new race, blended from their Frost Giant and human captives, a race intended to be their foot soldiers in the ongoing conflict - these were the first Goliaths. Thousand of Goliaths died fighting against the Frost Giants, and from peak to peak and across vast glaciers they pushed the giants back. But the Goliaths were not content to be slave soldiers, and plotted rebellion. On the eve of the final battle they rebelled and fled the fortress of the Oni. Those Oni, left without an army, were hunted down and massacred by the Frost giants. The Oni will never forgive the Goliaths their betrayal, and the Frost Giants will never forgive their very creation, so the Goliaths live a fraught life in the high peaks, eking out survival in the harshest of environments and fighting an endless vendetta against their two bitter foes,

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Ok, I'll think this will be my take on the Goliath for my eventual Eberron campaign:

+2 Con, +1 Str
Speed 35
Giant's Reach. When you make a melee attack on your turn, your reach for it is 5 feet greater than normal.
Powerful Build. You count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push, drag, or lift.
Mountain Dweller. Goliath clans roam the frontier between land and sky, from the volcanic peaks of Xendrik to the the Snow-topped mounts of the Icefell. You are immune to the effect of Extreme Altitude and Extreme Heat or Cold.
Boulder Stance. You can cover yourself as an action, offering only your stony hide to the exterior. Until you emerge, you gain three-quarter cover against attacks, and you have advantage on Strength and Constitution saving throws against effect that would move you. While in this stance, your speed is 10 and can't increase, you can't take reactions, your sight only extent up to 15 feet and the only action you can take is a bonus action to end the stance.
Giant's Strength. When you make an attack roll using strength you can you can treat any 1 or 2 on a damage die as a 3.
Mighty Leap. Climbing doesn't cost you extra movement and you can make a running long jump or a running high jump after moving only 5 feet on foot, rather than 10 feet.

What do you think? Too op?