Good PCs Attacking a Neutral Temple

[LostSoul]

Well, whatever you do, make sure that it will be fun. Don't punish the players like this:

"You didn't play your alignments, so now you will have a boring session as a consequence."

Do it like this:

"You did some pretty crazy stuff, so now you'll have to deal with the consequences - and that'll probably mean that the adventure will be more difficult."

 

[Retreater]

I'm changing some elements of the module from the campaign setting it was written for to put it in another campaign setting. However, the status of the religions involved with the temple investigation remain the same, even though the names have changed.

I'll be adding some details about the module here, so there will be some spoilers. I'm attempting to hide them by changing the color of the text in this box.

Beware, spoilers.

The module is Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave. I don't have the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, and we are playing in Greyhawk, so I'm making some modifications. The Temple in question is masquerading as a temple to Mystara when it is secretly (unknown to the guards and some of the clergy) serving the purpose of Shar and Cyric. I'm changing it to Boccob with secret connections to Wee Jas and the Suel.

The clerics, secretly evil, have undetectable alignment potions so that they appear to be not evil. The cleric in charge of public relations has an obscene bluff check bonus of +15, so the party has been unable to find any reason to distrust him except for the suspicions of a real priest of Boccob who's very nervous about the temple.

The false temple has a ritual to dominate people who visit the inner temple. The party's cleric (who led the attack on the temple) and the sorcerer participated in this ritual to try to get more information. The sorcerer voluntarily failed his Will save to be dominated, thinking he would gain greater magical power. The cleric was unaffected because he had a Protection from Evil cast on himself during the ritual, which so happened to block the domination effect. The cleric did not however, in game, know that this happened and that the sorcerer was dominated. To his knowledge he just did not "get" the ritual and was sent on his way.

So the party is actually doing the "right" thing, but they are going about it in a reckless way. Had the paladin and fighter not left to get the guards, there wouldn't have been a stink raised locally soon enough. The group would have gotten inside and found the evidence they need to prove that evil is going on. But as it is now, betrayed by the forces of law and good, the party can't reasonably get inside the temple.

I did email my gaming group, explained to them the situation going on in the city with the town guard. I'm asking them how they think we should proceed. I'm tempted, just to spare inter-party conflict and hurt feelings, to do a reset on the campaign.

Retreater

 

[Retreater]

Well, whatever you do, make sure that it will be fun. Don't punish the players like this:

"You didn't play your alignments, so now you will have a boring session as a consequence."

Do it like this:

"You did some pretty crazy stuff, so now you'll have to deal with the consequences - and that'll probably mean that the adventure will be more difficult."

Right, I don't want to turn this into a game of Litigations and Lawsuits.

I'm outlining some of their options in email so we can get down to business when we sit down next week to game.

Retreater

 

[frankthedm]

withdrawn, I thought those were city guards, not temple mercenaries...

 

[GreatLemur]

The clerics, secretly evil, have undetectable alignment potions so that they appear to be not evil.

That is hilarious. I am struggling not to bitch about the alignment system some more, right now.

That said, though, I really love the whole situation your party--especially the Sorcerer and the hotheaded Cleric--have gotten themselves into. It's a pain in the ass, most definitely, but it does make for good drama.

Now, if this was static fiction as opposed to an interactive, multi-player game, I'd expect the dominated Sorcerer to encounter some incriminating horrors in the temple and shake off his enchantment just enough to get a partial message to the party (however many of them remain out of prison, anyway), and either be attacked or re-dominated before he can communicate more. The party members that are still free might then bust the imprisoned members out of jail to go storm the temple a second time, now with a much better idea of where to look for proof of criminality.

Or, on the other hand, the temple might try to hush the whole incident up in order to avoid any official investigation into their own activities, but it sounds like the ship's already sailed on that one.

 

[Zendragon]

PCs attacking a Neutral temple?!

Quick! Sound the Beige Alert!

What makes a man turn neutral anyway?

Serious consequences needed to be handed out. Loss of spellcasting, some geas to perform, wall rebuilding, and a serious fine. You may need to talk to player out of session and see what was going on. A reading of the alignment system is also in order. If he wants to change alignments, then let him. (I know, alignment system is out of whack, but if it is being used, then it needs to be used by both sides.)

 

[haakon1]

Consequences appropriate to your setting. Do they hang murderers locally?

Nod. I'd have the militia show up and either arrest the PC's or retreat and call for backup if the PCs seem too tough (incidentally giving the PC's a chance to flee and become fugitives, or stay and become food for crow).

An arrest and swift execution (roll new characters) for the guys who made the mistake is possible, but I probably be nice and have the local law decide to commute or delay the execution if the PC's serve in a free, deadly adventure instead.

From experience, the "we'll hang you, or you could do this adventure" can be fun to DM.

And of course, that would not cool things off with the church that was attacked. Sectarian violence against the PC's own churches is likely, perhaps a collapse of civil order, or nightime assassination attacks and generally shunning of the PC's would also be side effects. For example, the Mages Guild and Boccob (or whoever your neutral god of magic may be) are almost surely aligned. That means no buying or selling magic items, no access to Mage Guild libraries for the PC wizard, etc.

 

[happyelf]

Are the PC clerics operating from their deity's ethos or what?

It sounds like there may be problems that can't be resolved purely in-game. Was there some player vs. player tension? That the party was so split up is a bad sign. Were the players just bored? They may have been expecting action instead of investigation.

Yeah this is always an important point. From what's been said I think they were frustrated and knew kinda what was going on but were running up against a dead end while investigating it.

This is the problem with mysteries or investigation plots. If you don't do them right, you end up with nothing to do but fish around for more leads. A lot of players get frustrated in that kind of situation. Did the module have any hooks for what to do if the players run out of leads?

Either way, i'd suggest that unless you want a detour into some penance, you should get the other churches involved. Who do the PC priests worship? Can they get some support there? Some attonement might needed either way.

Failing that a rollback might be a plan. But it's important to remember that the players had some cause to be getting frustrated if their investigations were dragging over-long.

Also IMO Vecna would work better than Wee Jas, but YMMV.

Personally, I think this is a great demonstration of why the whole alignment system is a bad idea. The actual story of what's happening here sounds really dramatic and interesting, but you're getting distracted by the moral checkboxes of the parties involved.

I don't think that's even remotely true. He's using alignments as intended- general guidelines. These guys were LG, so they should not being doing something so unlawful and recklessly violent.

Extremely good point. The temple and the people running it could be utterly evil, and the Cleric still would have illegally attacked the place and then killed people when they (quite legally) tried to make him leave.

This is also not true. If a temple was 'uttely' evil, they would be doing evil things, and might be a legitimate target for any number of reasons.

 

[phindar]

What makes a man turn neutral anyway?

Is it a love of gold?

If I don't make it, tell my wife I said "Hello".

All I know is my gut says "Maybe".

The commentary on that episide is interesting. Apparently they had tons of neutrality jokes they cut because they knew they'd only be funny to D&D players.

 

[billd91]

Also IMO Vecna would work better than Wee Jas, but YMMV.
<snip>

This is also not true. If a temple was 'uttely' evil, they would be doing evil things, and might be a legitimate target for any number of reasons.

I disagree. Utterly evil doesn't mean you're doing evil deeds 24/7. It's not like you have dead puppies hanging off of you all the time. Particularly if they have a particular plot in the making and have to be incognito.
I agree that Vecna would be an excellent choice.