Good Superhero-Game?

[Dannyalcatraz]

Hey, like I said, HERO is crunchy! When I see "smooth" in the context of an RPG system, I think of mechanical smoothness: can "X" be done without having to house-rule something? In HERO, there's almost no such thing as house-ruling.

There is seldom one way of doing things. Unless the GM puts his foot down, you can do almost anything in a variety of ways.

A lightning bolt could be an Energy Blast or a Ranged Killing Attack. It could do normal, killing or Stun only damage. It could be a normal attack (something emanating from the PC) or indirect (calling a bolt down from the heavens). It could be a single attack or autofire; affect one target or area effect hex, cone, line, radius, variable, or even explosion. It could be innate or come from a device. The effects of the power could affect the target only, or they could affect anyone touching the target. The source of the power to generate the bolts could be mutant biology, alien biology, magic, psionic, or high-tech...and many other options besides.

And all of the above (and more) can be mixed in any combination you can imagine.

 

[Ruined]

I'll chime in with the Blood of Heroes crowd. I ran and played the DC Heroes system it came from for years, and loved its simple elegance. The dice mechanic was a lot of fun with bonuses for rolling doubles (on 2d10), and the comparison chart wasn't a problem once you had played a few times. The reservoir of Hero Points to enhance those needed rolls or deflect damage made the game more dynamic, something needed for smash 'em up superhero games.

For the record, we always used DC for homebrew worlds with completely new characters - no stacking up against established characters like Supes or Batman. If you can locate a copy of Blood of Heroes or maybe DC Heroes 3rd edition on eBay or gameshop, I say check it out.

I've tried out Mutants & Masterminds on a number of occasions and I can't say I was that thrilled. It could be because I'm a huge fan of d20 D&D that the modifications to the system stood out like a sore thumb. It was missing something to me, and I can't really determine what it was. Given the people who love it on these boards, obviously it has some strong things going for it. It just wasn't my cup of tea. YMMV.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

You might take a look-see at the Mastermind's Manual- among other things in it, they re-introduce certain D20 concepts like a Level based system.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=162855

 

[Felon]

Hey, like I said, HERO is crunchy! When I see "smooth" in the context of an RPG system, I think of mechanical smoothness: can "X" be done without having to house-rule something? In HERO, there's almost no such thing as house-ruling.

Wow, that's a statement that's certain to be contested. I wound up house-ruling my HERO system game to hell and back, and it wasn't because I have a passion for devising house rules.

HERO has many exploitable mechanics that its designers have been well aware of since the 1980's, and yet they leave them in place because of some arbitrary concepts that they hold up as unassailable principles (when they're actually just personal aesthetics). For instance, buying 5 pts Strength pays for itself in figured characteristics, so it's almost a form of self-induced handicap to not to be somewhat super-strong. Not only that, but since you get 10 points of STR for free, bricks get an extra +2d6 damage gratas. Haymakering makes the damage potential even more gross. Then there's the craziness with leaping distance being a figured attribute, but not running distance, so you can wind up with all these super-strong characters hopping around everywhere like jumping beans.

But none of that will ever be addressed because the boys at HERO think that their system reached a state of near perfection in 1982, and maintaining a 1-for-1 point cost ratio for Strength meshes with their precious principle that all attack powers should cost 5 pts for 1d6 (or 1 Damage Class). They can't convince themselves to make an exception even when it's badly needed. Fifth addition introduced a few neat new things, such as fixed-point add-ons replacing all those little +1/4 advantages certain powers had, but for the most part the system isn't nearly as polished as it needs to be.

Disadvantages are another area that clearly need some restructuring. There is no distinction between disads that have immediate, quantifiable ramifications (Berserk, Susceptability, Vulnerability, Unluck) and those that are at best indirectly dangerous (Dependents, Distinctive Features, Psychological Limitations). So it's quite common to see characters loaded up on nickel-and-dime disads.

Ultimately, the only viable counter to all of this is that it's up to the players to exercise restraint, and it's up to the GM to decide what players can and can't have. In other words, after all the math and complex rules, we're relying on the honor system even moreso than other games.

Which makes all of the complexity pointless. All too often I've seen the low-power characters with interesting concepts wind up being far more cost-prohibitive than a simple, straightforward damage factory.

EDIT--Oh, and I almost forgot to mention Knockback. HERO's Knockback rules got old real fast a long, long time ago. They really needed to come up with a better solution than selling characters Knockback Resistance.

 

[Vigilance]

Disadvantages are another area that clearly need some restructuring. There is no distinction between disads that have immediate, quantifiable ramifications (Berserk, Susceptability, Vulnerability, Unluck) and those that are at best indirectly dangerous (Dependents, Distinctive Features, Psychological Limitations). So it's quite common to see characters loaded up on nickel-and-dime disads.

I agree that disadvantages is the weak link of both Hero and GURPs (which is Hero-lite, which is an improvement over Hero imo).

 

[GuardianLurker]

I completely disagree with everything posted here. Batman can take fearsome presence, or a blast with a will save instead of a toughness save with the descriptor Charismatic terror attack. The system will do ANYTHING you want it to do, if you take the time to learn it.

But he has to take a power to do it. In the other two systems, he can do it based solely off his normal stats, with out having to buy powers. And if having to buy a power for Batman (the quinessential non-powered hero) isn't an indicator of a flaw in MM's system, I don't know what is.

Moreover Lois LANE can make both PRE or INFL attacks as well; *any* character can. They might not be effective, but they can at least make the attempt.

MM isn't a bad system. I'll even give you that it's one of the better intro supers systems in print. But I think BoH is a better intro system (even though its out-of-print), and HERO a better complex one.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Your experience is clearly different from mine (surprise, surprise).

I've played in double-digit numbers of HERO campaigns since 1982 (on both sides of the screen). Neither I nor any of the GMs I've played under have EVER used a house rule to modify the RAW. We have used house rules to help model certain specific settings, but those amounted to banning certain powers since they did not fit the setting, not because there was a problem with the power.

I don't know how familiar you are with the system, but some (not all) of the feedback loops that people cite as flaws are actually the result of an incomplete understanding of the rules, like ignoring the limits on buying down stats.

Not only that, but since you get 10 points of STR for free, bricks get an extra +2d6 damage gratas

Bricks get the same base 2d6 that everyone who doesn't sell back STR points gets. That's not a bonus, that's a level playing field. Just because it doesn't start at 0 doesn't mean its not fair. A STR of 10 is average- that base 2d6 is no different than the base 1d3 damage for an unarmed strike by a Medium sized creature in 3.5 Ed D&D. Both get modified if the strength of the PC is higher or lower than average.

Haymakering makes the damage potential even more gross. Then there's the craziness with leaping distance being a figured attribute, but not running distance, so you can wind up with all these super-strong characters hopping around everywhere like jumping beans.

All of which is an attribute of the source material- comic books. Jumping distance is based on the strength of the PC's leg muscles. Running speed is based on the general physical build of the PC (and generally, they're human sized)... Its conceptually no worse than most medium sized creatures having the same base speed (with some few races being an exception) unless they take levels in Barbarian or Monk.

We've had no problems with "nickel & dime" disads because we have always followed the principle that disads are meant to be used, coupled with the rule that a disadvantage that doesn't hinder the PC is worth 0 points. There's no such thing as a PC getting an advantage by loading up on "nickel & dime" disad because they keep popping up and complicating the PC's existence. A PC with a "Dependence" on total immersion in water 1 hour in 24 is going to be in trouble in Saudi Arabia, or on a space station.

And Knockback? We LOVE it! Very superheroic. (Realize as well that Knockback is considered an optional rule for any non-superheroic genre.) And KB resistance isn't the only way to avoid KB. You also avoid it by not getting hit. Or by playing with enough sense that your "Batman" archetyped PC doesn't melee with guys who are using busses like nunchaku.

 

[Thotas]

But he has to take a power to do it. In the other two systems, he can do it based solely off his normal stats, with out having to buy powers. And if having to buy a power for Batman (the quinessential non-powered hero) isn't an indicator of a flaw in MM's system, I don't know what is.

Moreover Lois LANE can make both PRE or INFL attacks as well; *any* character can. They might not be effective, but they can at least make the attempt.

Fearsome Presence is a Feat, not a Power. And anyone with a Hero Point can simulate a Feat for a round. Although, it should be admitted that the boundaries between a Feat and Power can sometimes be blurry in M&M. For that matter the "Strike" Power can be taken with a descriptor that identifies it as being the effect of martial arts training, and thereby technically a skill. So your non-Powered Batman can have a Power that isn't really a Power.

As far as "stuff M&M can't do" or doesn't do to your taste, a purchase of the Masterminds Manual will give you everything you need to figure out how to tweek the system to your indivudual needs. I was a DC Heros MEGS guy for years, so I know why you like it. And everything you liked is also in M&M, other than the MEGS system being admittedly probably the most sheerly simple game system I know (possibly beaten only by Savage Worlds).

 

[The Grackle]

Mutants and Masterminds all the way. I've heard it's the world's greatest superhero RPG even.

I've played HERO (some version of it anyway) a few times, and I played alot of GURPS supers in high school. I had fun playing both of those games, but they never had quite the same comicbook feel[/] that M&M does. I think it matches the genre almost perfectly. The characters seem like comic book characters, the combat is fast paced, and Power levels work really well for tuning the relative badassedness of badass characters.

 

[Fishbone]

HERO all the way. Mention Mutants and Masterminds and I'll wallop you with FRED, which has to be at least 12d6 double knockback.