Good Superhero-Game?

[Greg K]

Add me to the M&M list. In play, it reminds of the original Marvel game- fast paced while having much of the character customization ability of Champions.


As for other games (and I have seen more the following):

DC Heroes/Blood of Heroes: Still have lots of love for the MEGS system (I even have credit in the BOH sidekick), but I prefer M&M

Champions: I played it on occasion from Second edition through the Big blue book. I like the customization it allows, but I never liked how it played--Combat always dragged for me.

Heroes Unlimited: There are only three superhero games that I have seen and consider worse for doing superheroes -"Heroes and Heroines", Foundation and some overly complex game inspired by V&V. Classes w/levels, hit points by level and the handling of power growth in this game just never worked for me.

Marvel Superheroes Roleplaying game: I liked that it was fast paced and loved the power stunt system, but the game never worked for me without a lot of houserules.

V&V: It was fun to read (the authors love of comics came through), and the section on the law was good. The combat system with the table always rubbed me the wrong way.
Note: I thought that the Advanced V&V by Jeff and Jack was an approvement. It was too bad that they didn't get the rights back to the V&V name.

 

[Fishbone]

Knockback is pretty good. There are numerous ways to reduce it like the conditions it occurs, bracing, clinging, density increase, Knockback Resistance, etc.
It just makes sense that if somebody who can use "casual strength", that is half strength, no physical exertion, to toss around Buicks should launch somebody if they land a punch.
The power frameworks are really good, too.
"Brick" characters can be quickly put in their places by speedsters(characters like the Flash, the Blur) and Mentalists as they usually have low ego scores and are susceptible to Ego Blasts and Mind Control and the like. It can be picked up for pretty good prices and it is really all that is needed for a superhero campaign. I think the more powerful you want it the better off you are with it. For a low-powered think like Teen Titans, X-Men still at the academy I think Gurps would work a little better but the really strong superheros HERO is the way to go. HERO also does a darn good job for fantasy, just thought I'd through it out there. As for knocks on advantages: They're really just there to facilitate roleplaying and give a mechanical reason for it. Its pretty hard to cop out on it, unlike other games without them. If "nickle-and-diming" bothers you up the cap on points or give more base points. A few well-played disads can be pretty satisfying.

 

[Baroness]

I absolutely love M&M 2e, played in a game where we were fugitives being hunted for having been the henchmen of a powerful villains that had been recently captured. We used seventhsanctum.org's random superhero name generator to generate 25 names for each player, and then everyone had to pick one name from the list and build a character around that. It was fun and a bit silly, but M&M2e is flexible enough to allow almost anything so it worked well.

The Cast:
Demon Spawn(Leaping Clinging Burrowing Hellfire Blaster)
Obliterator One(Cyborg who could blast a hole through anything)
Titanium Shroud(Super-Armored Invisible Mind Blaster)
Ebony Bat(Evil Flying Batman)
Sniperfist(Martial Artist who could punch you from a mile away!)
Warp Shadow(Time-Controlling Shadow)

And after Obliterator One accidentally obliterated Demon Spawn:
Killomancer(Evil Megalomaniac Wizard)

 

[kigmatzomat]

I can't believe I'm the only person who likes Champions: New Millenium. It is the Fuzion version of Champions that doesn't suck the way Fuzion Bubble Gum Crisis did.

It's a relatively quick and simple system with a lot of flexibility to it. The rules are coherent and the mechanics are straightforward. It isn't quite as granular as HeroSystem (but criminy, what is?) but comes pretty darn close. There are some fuzion-licensed add-ons for magic & more advanced power rules that gives it nearly as much crunch without the brain-bending math. It has its own "CR" system which basically uses the HeroSystem OCV/DCV as guides for character balance.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I don't recall what it was in particular that got to me, but I hated the Fuzion stuff.

 

[Teflon Billy]

I don't recall what it was in particular that got to me, but I hated the Fuzion stuff.

I'm with you. I had high hopes for it, but it was not to my taste.

 

[Felon]

Your experience is clearly different from mine (surprise, surprise).
I've played in double-digit numbers of HERO campaigns since 1982 (on both sides of the screen). Neither I nor any of the GMs I've played under have EVER used a house rule to modify the RAW.

Well, that still doesn't support an assertion that there's no such thing as house-ruling in the HERO System. Just means you guys live with it as is, warts and all. Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't mean the system's perfect either.

I don't know how familiar you are with the system, but some (not all) of the feedback loops that people cite as flaws are actually the result of an incomplete understanding of the rules, like ignoring the limits on buying down stats.

I've been playing it since 2nd edition came out. I thought it was revolutionary back then. Dropped TSR"s Marvel Superheroes for it. When 4th edition came out, I flatly quit D&D for several years and tried to get other players to join me on Fantasy Hero Island. I mean, how can anybody ever want to play a game where you couldn't have exactly the character you wanted?

However, actual experience with other players have shown me the light. HERO is a "pie-in-the-sky" system. It's great if everyone's sticking to the spirit of the game, building from a concept, and basically taking pains to avoid stepping in many of the exploitable loopholes in the system that remain unfixed. HERO had its day, but it's time for its designers to either perform some long-overdue tune-ups or get used to folks jumping ship to other games.

Bricks get the same base 2d6 that everyone who doesn't sell back STR points gets. That's not a bonus, that's a level playing field.

Do I have to really explain what my point was? STR grants 2d6 over what other damage-dealing powers grant. That, plus the other mechanical advantages that STR offers--mainly that it pays for itself in ifgured characteristics--make it too good a buy. This is demonstrably true, and even guys like Bruce Harlick and Steve P have admitted that. Heck, I think they even mention it in the 5e book.

We've had no problems with "nickel & dime" disads because we have always followed the principle that disads are meant to be used, coupled with the rule that a disadvantage that doesn't hinder the PC is worth 0 points. There's no such thing as a PC getting an advantage by loading up on "nickel & dime" disad because they keep popping up and complicating the PC's existence. A PC with a "Dependence" on total immersion in water 1 hour in 24 is going to be in trouble in Saudi Arabia, or on a space station.

Since you claim extensive experience with the system, I don't know what to make of the naivete inherent in these these statements. Of course you can gain advantage by loading up on nickel-and-dime disads, because a GM can't maintain an adventure while having 14 different DNPC's and 19 different Hunteds showing up every session. And moreover, the notion that having one's life "complicated" is equally disadvantageous as having one's life terminated is manifestly flawed.

My approach would be to drop the emphais on Disads comprising 3/5 of a character's point base, lose all the intangible complication Disads, and just award bonus points for quantifiable ones like susceptability to krypotnite or vulnerability to fire.

And Knockback? We LOVE it! Very superheroic.

Knockback is pretty good.

Knockback is good. Routinely spending a half-phase action getting up is not so good, particularly if you're a close-combat specialist. If they arguement is that it's "superheroic", then I'd pretty quickly point out that knockback is generally reserved for haymaker-style blows where the characters really cut loose. Few comics display one panel after another of characters picking themselves up off their rear ends.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Can anybody recommend me a good Superhero game? I've been looking about, but I havent found a good one yet - and Jürgen, I'm not looking for a GURPS option .

Pity... (especially since GURPS 4e might actually work for this sort of campaign, unlike 3e)


But I'll just add to the chorus of Mutants & Masterminds fans instead. I will get to play in a campaign starting tomorrow. The other characters are:

- A human transformed into a being of pure light.
- A woman with control over darkness.
- The H4 Chronometer.

Me? I'm playing a human who got mind-switched into a Formless Spawn...

 

[WayneLigon]

However, actual experience with other players have shown me the light. HERO is a "pie-in-the-sky" system. It's great if everyone's sticking to the spirit of the game, building from a concept, and basically taking pains to avoid stepping in many of the exploitable loopholes in the system that remain unfixed. HERO had its day, but it's time for its designers to either perform some long-overdue tune-ups or get used to folks jumping ship to other games.

Even the best-engineered system cannot fix broken players or a GM that isn't paying attention.

Since you claim extensive experience with the system, I don't know what to make of the naivete inherent in these these statements. Of course you can gain advantage by loading up on nickel-and-dime disads, because a GM can't maintain an adventure while having 14 different DNPC's and 19 different Hunteds showing up every session. And moreover, the notion that having one's life "complicated" is equally disadvantageous as having one's life terminated is manifestly flawed.

I don't know what to make of the statement that apparently you had a sucker for a GM. Only if your GM lets you load up on nickel-and-dime disads do they become a problem. When will people stop putting stuff in the system's lap that has nothing to do with the system? HERO constantly, constantly tells you that a disad that is not really a disad is worth no points.

Life complications are indeed equally disadvantageous if you're playing an actual role-playing game and not just combat after combat. Have you ever had a dependent? Do you know what a complication that makes for in your life, especially when you can't tell them why you keep running off? Maintaining a secret ID or dealing with a girlfriend that keeps getting kidnapped by your archfoe is at least as 'complicated' as a bunch of supervillains that want to kill you. Harder, in some aspects.

 

[LostSoul]

In the final analysis, what is most important is what the character can do. What the rules call the ability is not likely to be generally relevant - A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. Be open to separating the game definition of "power" from the flavor-text describing the origins of the ability, and the problem largely vanishes.

Yeah - a "power" in the game's rules doesn't have to be a "power" in the game's fiction.