Good Superhero-Game?

[JoeGKushner]

For me, it's Mutants & Masterminds 2nd ed, Silver Age Sentinels (tri-stat version) or Hero 5th ed.

I have a ton of experience with Hero so feel very comfortable with it. Silver Age has a lot of flexibility but isn't as detailed. Mutants & Masterminds is a good compromise between too much detail and flexibility.

 

[buzz]

I'd just like to chime in that I've had none of the problems Felon attributes to HERO, and I've been palying it since 1st ed. Our current Champions campaign has worked fine for three years, and the only house rule we use is eliminating CON stunning.

Then again, I will say that there is some merit to some of Felon's concerns, and it is true that HERO, given its massive flexibility, requires a good amount of GM oversight. Then again, this can be said of many RPGs, especially point-buy games, and games which simply have a lot of available options. Yes, that includes D&D.

However, the point of HERO is not that it reduces GM oversight. The main point of the current incarnation of HERO is that it is an extremely powerful and detailed character description language, one that can be used to stat out, in very concrete terms, just about any conceivable idea. If this power is appealing to you, and you like systems that provide a great deal of detail and tactical options, HERO is a good choice.

If the above is of no interest to you, avoid HERO.

M&M2e is a great game that is essentially in the HERO mode, but with simpler mechanics, and specifically focused on supers. There are also many nods to more of the "story focus" aspects of supers that you see in indie games like Capes, With Great Power, and Truth & Justice.

Ergo, I think it depends on what you want. If you want to play out superheroic combat and get off on tactics and power builds, HERO or M&M2e will fit the bill depending on your taste for crunch. If you care more about exploring things like how superpowers affect relationships or color morality, I would suggest the indie route.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I don't recall what it was in particular that got to me, but I hated the Fuzion stuff.

I loathed the BGC Fuzion release. Total tripe.

CNM's base book was a little bland for someone who'd played Champions/Hero but it was a great book for someone with no experience in HERO. One of the expansion books brought back some of the more advanced rules like power pools.

HERO was always too much work; I passed differential equations and HERO char-gen still makes me cringe. I detest a ruleset where you have to pay attention to order of operations.

The greatest Fuzion disappointment to me was Core:Shards of the Stone by Obsidian. An incredible system (Fuzion + hero points), great setting, gorgeous artwork (I bought several prints at Gencon2000), wonderful expansion to the fuzion magic mechanics and lots of well known RPG authors had signed on to create material. But then due to "creative differences" things went haywire. They apparently still exist but they've got their own mechanic, are planning on doing d20 conversions, and the new books are 3-ring binders. Ack. And *sigh*

 

[Felon]

Even the best-engineered system cannot fix broken players or a GM that isn't paying attention.

The issues I've described has little to do with abusive players or inattentive GM's. If you put points into STR, it will pay for itself and you will get a better return than the guy who bought energy blast--no devious exploitation required there. As stated, the issues with HERO are such that it takes some effort not to tumble into some of HERO's pitfalls.

However, the point of HERO is not that it reduces GM oversight. The main point of the current incarnation of HERO is that it is an extremely powerful and detailed character description language, one that can be used to stat out, in very concrete terms, just about any conceivable idea. If this power is appealing to you, and you like systems that provide a great deal of detail and tactical options, HERO is a good choice.

If the above is of no interest to you, avoid HERO.

Meh. Hate to sound like an apostate, but I'd say avoid it if the above is of interest to you. HERO provides a lot of theoretical options, but the point costs often thwart ambitious, interesting character designs in lieu of designing a straighforward powerhouse.

When getting together for a session, there are certain powers I know I can expect not to see at the table (Teleknesis being a classic example--way overpriced, and in fact falls short of the 1 DC for 5 point principle) and certain other powers I can expect to see a lot of (Flash Defense, Power Defense, Mental Defense--ridiculously cheap). There are certain Limitations I can expect to see a lot of as well--a character or two that buy everything as an Obvious Inaccessible Focus (they've realized that a power that can't be taken away unless you're helpless is a non-limiting limitation) or Only in Hero ID.

The catch is that this isn't player abuse or lack of imagination or GM inattentiveness or any of the other standard-issue buck-passing rationales. This is a matter of people coming in with a cool idea, encouraged and excited that they were fully capable of building it using HERO. But then they discover the difference between the theoretical and the practical possibilities. They have to make concessions--and more concessions, and whittle down until eventually the man-of-a-million-animal-forms became a guy with a hand-to-hand killing attack and some hand-to-hand-combat skill levels. The martial artist has to drop his Mind Scan and other detective-based powers. The gadgeteer winds up a flying brick. The speedster with a dozen tricks up his sleeve that would amaze Barry Allen himself becomes a guy who runs around punching things with a Hand-to-Hand Attack.

Please, no replies that just blithely insist "oh, in all my years, I've never seen that happen". If that's the case, you've either got GM's waiving certain characters' point costs, or you're just in a state of blissful denial. Sorry to be blunt, no derision intended, but I'm like that jaded cop who can eat a chili dog while the crime-lab guys are scraping brain matter off the wall. I've just seen this happen too many times.

 

[teitan]

Both MM1 and MM2 have very real problems duplicating skill-heavy heroes like Batman or Mr. Terrific. In MM1, it was essentially impossible. In MM2, it's possible, but you probably won't get close to what you want.

Uhhh, no, you are soooooo wrong. Highly skilled characters were EASY to make. You took super-attributes and flawed them to skills only because Super-atts added to your skill level and then all you had to do was put a couple points in trained only skills, even just 1. All of a sudden you had a guy with MAD skills and much cheaper than ANY of the supposed fixes the community came up with. You had to go all the way to 1 power point equals 4 skill points for the fix to work. In 2e that is the exchange rate for PP and SP. You could put ten points in skills now and get a GREAT highly trained character at PL 10.

Jason

 

[buzz]

If you put points into STR, it will pay for itself and you will get a better return than the guy who bought energy blast--no devious exploitation required there. As stated, the issues with HERO are such that it takes some effort not to tumble into some of HERO's pitfalls.

FWIW, many (if not all) systems deal with these issues. In D&D, there are feats that are indispensible and feats that are nearly worthless, and some classes are weaker than others.

Meh. Hate to sound like an apostate, but I'd say avoid it if the above is of interest to you. HERO provides a lot of theoretical options, but the point costs often thwart ambitious, interesting character designs in lieu of designing a straighforward powerhouse.

I have yet to see the system thwart ambitious, interesting designs, but I have seen GMs do so.

Felon, you may want to check out a thread about HERO I started over on the Forge. It deals specifically with the very issue you're talking about, i.e., the pointlessness of building any aspect of a PC that isn't specifically about kicking ass in combat.

The catch is that this isn't player abuse or lack of imagination or GM inattentiveness or any of the other standard-issue buck-passing rationales.
...
Please, no replies that just blithely insist "oh, in all my years, I've never seen that happen". If that's the case, you've either got GM's waiving certain characters' point costs, or you're just in a state of blissful denial.

As usual, HERO inspires either great love or great hate, and not much in-between. Interestingly, it's typically the veterans like yourself whom I see in the "hate" category. I think that certain aspects of HERO combined with certain players and play-styles often results in the "screw this, I'm never looking back" attitude I see here and elsewhere.

Despite your admonition, all I can say is, I totally understand where you are coming from, yet... none of the issues you raise have affected my HERO games. As I mention in that Forge thread, it's more my GMs that have affected them.

That said, a ground-up revision of HERO that didn't result in a Fuzion-like debacle wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, IMO.

 

[teitan]

I really suggest M&M myself but also Silver Age Sentinels.

M&M is great if you want a fast and loose system that is easy to improvise. Its weakness is its speed of play though. It does allow for HEAVY GM fiat which I like. If you don't want the villain to go down yet, he doesn't go down, plain and simple. The usual test of a system, Green Lanternm, can be done but it takes some thinking and imagination. Think V&V meets Marvel Super Heroes with a touch of DC Heroes.

SAS is Hero lite. You can create ANYTHING in SAS and it emulates Green Lantern like characters with charm and grace. Power Flux or Dynamic Powers is the weakness and strength of this system as these powers seem to be the catch all for sooooo many concepts. It isn't a skill heavy system and because of the huge range it requires a little chart that helps normal characters accomplish certain tasks but that is no big deal. Its also probably one of the best genre books written on the topic. Not a lot of support, mostly NPC books and adventure books and while the cost of the core is about 50 bucks, the support stuff is pretty cheap. You can get just the rules for free or about 10 bucks in print. An even grander scale version is available in The Authority RPG & Sourcebook.

Jason

 

[Zander]

I'm far from being an expert but I have Marvel Universe RPG (MURPG) and it seems to be a fun system. Unlike most fantasy RPGs (D&D, WHFRP), it's narrative-driven so the GM has more adjudicating to do. That's great if the GM isn't too hard-nosed and can create a good story. But if the GM is of the 'killer' variety, there's nothing to prevent TPKs. In terms of simulating comics, it's as good as the GM (and players) makes it.

I also have Batman RPG (yup, it really exists). It's also narrative-driven but is rules heavier than MURPG. I believe it's a spin-off of DC Heroes and it seems that you really need the latter to play Batman RPG. It's also, by its nature, limited in scope.

YMMV

 

[Felon]

FWIW, many (if not all) systems deal with these issues. In D&D, there are feats that are indispensible and feats that are nearly worthless, and some classes are weaker than others.

Quite true, it's unavoidable to some degree. But HERO involves much more overhead than these other games. if HERO is no more solid in this respect, then the overhead involved just isn't worthwhile IMO.

I have yet to see the system thwart ambitious, interesting designs, but I have seen GMs do so.

It seems to break down like this: eIther the character comes out point-balanced, or it doesn't. At that point, the GM either wavies the point imbalance, or the player has to start whittling. Now, the remark that was I responding to is that "there's almost no such thing as house rules" with HERO. The implication of that statement is that the game has so few shortcomings that the GM just plays it as-is. If that were true, there would be no need to waive something as fundamental to the system as balanced point costs. To put it simply, point-waving is an off-the-cuff house rule.

Felon, you may want to check out a thread about HERO I started over on the Forge. It deals specifically with the very issue you're talking about, i.e., the pointlessness of building any aspect of a PC that isn't specifically about kicking ass in combat.

I'll check it out once my eyes recover from being dialated. I would extend that issue a bit to cover attack powers whose primary benefit doesn't apply some kind of damage to the target. Mental Control, Mind Control, Mind Scan, and Teleknesis are all prohibitively expensive for the level of effect you can get out of them. It's much easier to blast some Viper mook through a wall than it is to freeze him in place with mind control. In general, simulating D&D's save-oriented effects like Confusion, Hold Person, Scare, or Sleep is generally going to be too expensive to be reliably effective.

As usual, HERO inspires either great love or great hate, and not much in-between. Interestingly, it's typically the veterans like yourself whom I see in the "hate" category. I think that certain aspects of HERO combined with certain players and play-styles often results in the "screw this, I'm never looking back" attitude I see here and elsewhere.

Despite your admonition, all I can say is, I totally understand where you are coming from, yet... none of the issues you raise have affected my HERO games. As I mention in that Forge thread, it's more my GMs that have affected them.

Oh, I don't hate it, I just think its time is past and it will remain obsolete as long as its designers keep thinking certain aspects of the system are inviolable.

I wrote a couple of the first articles for Digital Hero back in the nineties. One article I wanted to work on dealt with the Spirit Shift and Spirit Consumption powers. I loved them and the spirit rules as they were presented--I thought they were much beter-suited for a fantasy campaign than the pyrotechnic pseudo-superpowers that we're accustomed to seeing from mages--but again everyone who wanted to use them ran into one little obstacle; they were cost-prohibitive to the point of being practically useless. They costed 20 and 30 points per d6 respectively, had no range (the spirit rules explressly stated you can't use no-range powers against spirits), and had no effect unless a character was drained to negative EGO yet it wasn't even inherently cumulative.

I had a series of email dialogues with the guy who designed the spirit powers about ways to make them more attainable. He insisted that they should remain expensive because he thought they were so powerful. I tried pointing out that for half the cost in AP to get even a marginal level of effectiveness out of the spriit powers, a character could have a Ranged Killing Attack that would annihlate an opponent with one shot. That's about as powerful as anyone needs to worry about. I got nowhere with him, because the HERO designers just see things in their own light.

I would love to see that change.

 

[Thotas]

Thanks, Tietan ... you reminded me of another criticism of M&M that I'd meant to respond to in the earlier post. It is absolutely easy to make a skill-based super in that game. In fact, the core rules provide 13 samples of character example types, of which 4 have no "powers" outside of those possessed by their Devices and Equipment, 5 if you count the Battlesuit example.