Goodaligned Necromancers

[Jack Simth]

Are any of the spells that make undead with the [Evil] descriptor capable of making ghosts? If yes, then that confuses the issue; if no, then it might be conjectured that a theoretical spell that makes ghosts would not be [Evil].

Well, the epic seed Animate Dead is capable of making ghosts, and it is evil - of course, it can also make skeletons, zombies, ghouls, shadows, ghasts, wights, wraiths, mummys, spectors, morghs, and vampires (interestingly, creating a ghost is more difficult than creating a vampire....) Link

 

[ThirdWizard]

Well, yes. The RAW says so. Hence my first post in this thread

And the round and round we go.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Anyone know of any historical basis for this? In what religious tradition or culture is animating undead evil?

In the real world, Egyptians and some other cultures prepared special guardians of sacred sites from the ranks of volunteers (and *ahem* "volunteers") who were slain and then submitted to special rituals designed to make them into eternal guardians.

In fiction, there are examples of undead of various kinds that defend persons, objects and even cities- or even avenge wrongs. Fritz Lieber's Sons of Kyuss are one such example..they are the former nobility of the city of Lankhmar who occasionally rise from the dead and wander the streets of their city. In Disney's (that's right!) Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang, spirits are called up to animate suits of armor and defend England. Even deceased King Arthur is believed to lie in wait to be summoned to do the same. The heroes of Valhalla could also be considered undead of a very special kind, though they seem never to leave the plane of Asgard. Jason (of Argonauts fame) cast dragon's teeth into the ground to summon the spirits of slain warriors to do his bidding. Orpheus almost raised his wife.

All undead are evil.

Ghosts and Mummies are not neccessarily evil, by their descriptors.

Using positive energy is good because healing is good.

Going all the way back to 1st Ed, Mummies are linked to the Positive Energy plane, not the Negative.

There's also something akin to undead - the deathless, they are notliving, but they're good instead of evil.

As for the "Deathless" vs "Undead" distinction, I have always thought of that as a particularly large load of titan-crap. Its a distinction without a difference. If it walks like an undead duck and quacks like an undead duck, its an undead duck.

That D&D inflexibly tries to eliminate good-aligned undead is, IMHO, weak.

In my campaigns, there are good versions of the undead-creating spells...but they are EXCEEDINGLY rare.

 

[Shadowdweller]

In Disney's (that's right!) Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang, spirits are called up to animate suits of armor and defend England.

I admit it's been a LONG time. But isn't that Bedknobs and Broomsticks rather than Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang?

 

[Staffan]

Going all the way back to 1st Ed, Mummies are linked to the Positive Energy plane, not the Negative.

Not in 3e, though. Note that mummies are hurt by Cure spells and healed by Inflict spells, just like other undead.

As for the "Deathless" vs "Undead" distinction, I have always thought of that as a particularly large load of titan-crap. Its a distinction without a difference. If it walks like an undead duck and quacks like an undead duck, its an undead duck.

Except there are mechanical differences - deathless are affected by cures/inflicts as living creatures are, and turn/rebuke has the opposite effect on them. That's because they're positive-powered, not negative-powered.

 

[IcyCool]

I admit it's been a LONG time. But isn't that Bedknobs and Broomsticks rather than Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang?

Yep. But in D&D terms, one might be able to call those Golems, or animated objects, or ... wraiths.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

OOPS!

It was B&B! Sorry 'bout that!

The problem with calling them merely animated objects or golems is the way they act. They behave like real knights in armor...gestures, raising visors to get a better "view," tactics...as I recall, they even chant.

I know, it could go either way, but they always struck me as more than merely toys of a spell.

 

[Thundering_Dragon]

Why don't you discuss the issue with your DM? In his world, what exactly does animating or creating Undead entail? Are you placing the immortal souls of the creatures whose bodies you're using in a hellish prison of rotting flesh and total loss of will? Or are you simply creating a type of Golem using Negative Energy?

As written, the Undead animation/creation spells are Evil because, well, because they're supposed to be. Your best bet would be to talk to your DM and clarify the issue with him. Either the spell is not Evil, and is a form of matter manipulation through magic, or it is Evil, and a logical reason should exist why.

 

[Shadowdweller]

It was B&B! Sorry 'bout that!

Heh. It's been so long I wasn't sure...which is why I responded.

 

[Milagroso]

Neither Create Undead nor Greater Create Undead have ghost as an option, and both of them have the [Evil] descriptor.

In that case, if I cast a Create Undead spell using the Metamagic feat Consecrate Spell which gives the spell the [Good] descriptor, would that make a difference? I mean, correct me if I am wrong, but aren't most unintelligent undead neutral to begin with?

I believe Forgotten Realms has a type of undead that isn't evil, doesn't it?

Now ask yourself why mindless undead are evil, or the creation of undead is evil. Keep in mind that negative energy isn't evil.

Round and round we go, wheee!

Let us not forget that the Shadowdancer Prestige class allows for having a Shade, an undead minion, to assist you only that the alignment of the shade is not necessarily evil it matches your own. So if it possible to have undead that are not evil, why is it not possible to have a necromancer who creates undead without suffering alignment hits?

All undead are evil.

Creating an evil creature is evil.

Creating undead is evil.

Well, see this is what we are trying to debate. Why are all undead evil? Truthfully, they are not. In cases of the archlich and other forms of deathless, which were traditionally labeled as undead, they were most certaintly not evil. So, apparently, not all undead are evil.

Because it's easier for them to do so. The Dark Side of the Force isn't really Evil, in and of itself, but Evil people find it easier to use.

Well said.

...Also, I don't think creating unintelligent undead should be evil. What's a body when it's dead. It's a piece of meat. It's nothing. Zombies and skeletons are just 'animated'. I think intelligent undead involves some kind of corruption of the soul which justifies the evil label. ...I never wanted to play a good necro, but a neutral one yeah.

See, this is my thinking as well.