Grade the GURPS System

[dbm]

Almost everything in the game (other than damage, which just uses hit points) focuses on minute details.

Damage isn’t quite so simple as this implies, which could be good or bad depending on preferences. Hit location has an effect; type of damage has an effect; hits cause pain and possibly stun. Doing a proportion of Health to a hand, foot, arm or leg will incapacitate it either temporarily or permanently. Hits to the head can KO.

It doesn’t use RoleMaster-style criticals but the damage system is pretty nuanced in my experience.

 

[Staffan]

Yeah, while this didn't bother me as much as the 1 second rounds, its probably the most extreme case of skill splitting I've ever hit in a game. I sometimes think some other games go too far in the other direction (even for action-adventure campaigns, I'm a bit bothered when there's no difference between Driving a car and a motorcycle), but as has been sometimes pointed out, not only does a large number of skills require a large number of points to properly cover some backgrounds, its always at the risk of leaving something out you might need but didn't think of. The Hero System arguably goes too far in this regard, but GURPS is significantly worse.

My preference is for something like the Troubleshooters, with a fairly compact skill list (I think Troubleshooters clocks in at about 30, and that includes things like Strength and Agility that would be attributes in other games) and with Abilities (sort of like feats) that can provide nuance in specific situations. That's also nice because it makes complexity be a thing players buy into rather than something forced. You don't need the Lock-picker ability to pick a lock, it just makes it easier than just having the Prestidigitation skill.

Well, that's a problem with almost all games with strong contribution to skills from attributes. Its just more visible in GURPS because of the fact everything has progressive rather than linear costs (something I like in principal, but...)

It's also more visible in GURPS because almost all skills are based off DX or IQ (or something that works off them, like Will or Perception). As a counterexample, Star Wars: Edge of the Empire has 33 skills, spread between Brawn (4), Agility (7), Intellect (10), Cunning (5), Willpower (3), and Presence (4). The equivalent of DX and IQ still carry a lot of weight, but nowhere near to the degree they do in GURPS.

Well, that's the sort of thing that is only really a problem because you don't do it enough. Aftermath did something pretty similar there, but the guy who used home-made concussion grenades after a couple times got it down to the point it wasn't usually time consuming unless there were a bunch of different targets at vastly different distances from the grenade; same (to a lesser degree) with Hero Explosions. The usual problem is when you have this sort of mechanic that only comes up occasionally, because every time it comes up everyone will likely have forgotten from the last time. It is, however, an intrinsic problem with specific mechanics with game systems that care about the details though; so it comes down to, again, whether the details matter to you (they don't to a lot of people).

You still need to make a whole bunch of rolls for every grenade though:

1. Hitting the target area in the first place (and potentially work out scatter).
2. Roll damage for each potential victim individually.
3. Roll a shrapnel attack for each potential victim, which may produce several individual damage rolls.

And that's not even going into the rules for figuring out how far you can throw a grenade in the first place...

Damage isn’t quite so simple as this implies, which could be good or bad depending on preferences. Hit location has an effect; type of damage has an effect; hits cause pain and possibly stun. Doing a proportion of Health to a hand, foot, arm or leg will incapacitate it either temporarily or permanently. Hits to the head can KO.

It doesn’t use RoleMaster-style criticals but the damage system is pretty nuanced in my experience.

There are some nuances but other than crippling limbs there isn't much in the way of effects that remain longer than a second or two other than the damage number. That's not really a problem, but feels odd given how detailed the game is in many other areas.

Given that I've seen GURPS develop from 2nd through 3rd and 4th edition, I think it's fair to say that GURPS is one of the worst examples of detail creep I've seen. The 2nd edition rules, while certainly not perfect, made for quite a neat system. Then you had dozens of sourcebooks, each written by fairly knowledgeable people going into detail on various topics, and then a lot of that detail got folded into the main game. And the result is a bit of a mess, with some skills working in weird ways because someone with specific knowledge made a fix that only applied to that particular thing. For example, high-TL physicians work as if they are at TL6 even if their surroundings are lower than that, because "they depend heavily on equipment but still receive good basic training." That's nice, but why is that a specific thing for physicians? Do engineers and mechanics not get taught basics?

 

[Thomas Shey]

My preference is for something like the Troubleshooters, with a fairly compact skill list (I think Troubleshooters clocks in at about 30, and that includes things like Strength and Agility that would be attributes in other games) and with Abilities (sort of like feats) that can provide nuance in specific situations. That's also nice because it makes complexity be a thing players buy into rather than something forced. You don't need the Lock-picker ability to pick a lock, it just makes it easier than just having the Prestidigitation skill.

Its absolutely a viable approach--but it always comes down to whether you want characters to not be able to do some things. The farther you swing away from cinematic assumptions, the more that matters. To use my prior example, most modern Americans can drive an automobile--but a much smaller group can drive a motorcycle, so if your system lets you do both with one skill, that's a particular statement about the effect you're trying for.

Mind you, most people probably don't care, and you can always decide to split it a bit wider without going to the GURPS level, so I'm just noting that there's a process that can lead you to the GURPS thing if you don't keep it in hand.

It's also more visible in GURPS because almost all skills are based off DX or IQ (or something that works off them, like Will or Perception). As a counterexample, Star Wars: Edge of the Empire has 33 skills, spread between Brawn (4), Agility (7), Intellect (10), Cunning (5), Willpower (3), and Presence (4). The equivalent of DX and IQ still carry a lot of weight, but nowhere near to the degree they do in GURPS.

DEX and INT or their equivalents tend to be the poster children in this sort of thing; even when other attributes are base of some skills, those two tend to carry a lot of the most important ones. Past that, some of it was just that, well, there were only four attributes and the other two just weren't going to be the base for many skills.

You still need to make a whole bunch of rolls for every grenade though:

1. Hitting the target area in the first place (and potentially work out scatter).
2. Roll damage for each potential victim individually.
3. Roll a shrapnel attack for each potential victim, which may produce several individual damage rolls.

Yeah, but honestly, I'm a one time BRP guy; a typical attacks could require up to four rolls (attack, defense, hit location and damage) so a few rolls doesn't concern me if you know how to do them and can move along. GURPS at least had the same feature that BRP did that damage was often eventful so it wasn't a case that you did a bunch of rolls and it only had minimal effect.

That said, not sure the separate damage rolls served any necessary purpose; the two game systems I mentioned previously paid some attention to this sort of thing without fiddling with that.

Given that I've seen GURPS develop from 2nd through 3rd and 4th edition, I think it's fair to say that GURPS is one of the worst examples of detail creep I've seen. The 2nd edition rules, while certainly not perfect, made for quite a neat system. Then you had dozens of sourcebooks, each written by fairly knowledgeable people going into detail on various topics, and then a lot of that detail got folded into the main game. And the result is a bit of a mess, with some skills working in weird ways because someone with specific knowledge made a fix that only applied to that particular thing. For example, high-TL physicians work as if they are at TL6 even if their surroundings are lower than that, because "they depend heavily on equipment but still receive good basic training." That's nice, but why is that a specific thing for physicians? Do engineers and mechanics not get taught basics?

Yeah, if you're going to take a plug-in approach (which a lot of the add-on books were, effectively, even though not called that), for the most part, leave the plug-ins there. There might be a few things over time that you decide were generally useful enough to drag in, but you need to be pretty selective about it.

 

[Staffan]

Its absolutely a viable approach--but it always comes down to whether you want characters to not be able to do some things. The farther you swing away from cinematic assumptions, the more that matters. To use my prior example, most modern Americans can drive an automobile--but a much smaller group can drive a motorcycle, so if your system lets you do both with one skill, that's a particular statement about the effect you're trying for.

Mind you, most people probably don't care, and you can always decide to split it a bit wider without going to the GURPS level, so I'm just noting that there's a process that can lead you to the GURPS thing if you don't keep it in hand.

My preferences definitely run more to the cinematic side, which is why I'm getting a bit frustrated in my current game group by a long period of playing first Eon (a Swedish game that's pretty crunchy) and now GURPS. And for some reason I can't fathom one of my players vetoes both TORG and Troubleshooters, which are very much more my speed (though Troubleshooters could use some spice in its combat system).

DEX and INT or their equivalents tend to be the poster children in this sort of thing; even when other attributes are base of some skills, those two tend to carry a lot of the most important ones. Past that, some of it was just that, well, there were only four attributes and the other two just weren't going to be the base for many skills.

That's when you go back and make more attributes. Or decouple attributes from skills entirely, like in Troubleshooters. But GURPS is an 80s game so it can't really be expected to keep up with modern game tech

Yeah, but honestly, I'm a one time BRP guy; a typical attacks could require up to four rolls (attack, defense, hit location and damage) so a few rolls doesn't concern me if you know how to do them and can move along. GURPS at least had the same feature that BRP did that damage was often eventful so it wasn't a case that you did a bunch of rolls and it only had minimal effect.

I'm from a BRP background myself (which is probably what drew me to GURPS at some point in the first place), but GURPS just takes things too far. Although it should be noted that in BRP, most of those rolls alternate: I roll to attack, and then you roll to defend. That's a bit different from requiring multiple rolls from the same player.

 

[Thomas Shey]

My preferences definitely run more to the cinematic side, which is why I'm getting a bit frustrated in my current game group by a long period of playing first Eon (a Swedish game that's pretty crunchy) and now GURPS. And for some reason I can't fathom one of my players vetoes both TORG and Troubleshooters, which are very much more my speed (though Troubleshooters could use some spice in its combat system).

Doesn't like that approach? (I'm familiar with TORG but not Troubleshooters).

That's when you go back and make more attributes. Or decouple attributes from skills entirely, like in Troubleshooters. But GURPS is an 80s game so it can't really be expected to keep up with modern game tech

Yeah, like I said, I always thought four attributes was a little lean. (I have mixed feelings about disconnecting attributes from skills; if you're going to go that route I'd rather you do something like Third Eye Games does with most of their designs where, other than something to function as strength and health you just get rid of them completely).

I'm from a BRP background myself (which is probably what drew me to GURPS at some point in the first place), but GURPS just takes things too far. Although it should be noted that in BRP, most of those rolls alternate: I roll to attack, and then you roll to defend. That's a bit different from requiring multiple rolls from the same player.

Well, to a point; note that out of the typical four-roll-resolution, three of those are usually done by the attacker (though I suppose you could have the defender roll hit locations if you wanted).

 

[John Dallman]

Every successful attack in GURPS takes a minimum of three rolls, typically four.

1. Attacker rolls to hit (Base skill, +/- modifiers)
2. Defender attempts active defense (base defense, +/- modifiers)
3. Attacker rolls hit location (no roll needed if (a) you performed a called shot or (b) you assume everything goes to the torso)
4. Attacker rolls damage

Then we have to assess DR in the specific location vs. Damage to the specific location, and then once we determine what got through the DR we apply the damage multiplier based on the damage type. Every. Single. Time.

Do that with with a 4-6 players on a VTT and it becomes so much clicking, applying, rolling, assessing. It's just really slow for us to resolve at the table.

That said, if GURPS is your game, meaning its what you play most of the time, and regularly, I have no doubt it speeds up.

It does, quite a lot. In the groups I play in, the only time we'd roll hit locations are for long-range shooting, when (a) taking the penalty for a hit location would significantly increase the chance of missing and (b) you don't want to just settle for hitting the torso. Other than that, you specify hit location when you make the attack roll (that table of penalties is on the character sheet).

Also, we try not to solve problems with frontal assaults. We try quite hard to make surprise attacks and otherwise deprive opponents of defense rolls, if it seems necessary to solve problems with violence. Avoiding that is just fine: the campaign I'm currently running (occult counterintelligence in WWII India) has had eleven session so far with 21 arrests and nobody killed.

GURPS does assume that you can do arithmetic, including simple multiplication and division, with numbers up to about thirty without conscious thought. If that is a problem, it may not suit you.

At the end of the day GURPS is not a game. It's a toolkit to build the game you want.

You can build nearly any game you want out of it. It excels at anything approaching reality from a real physics point of view (at least as much as an rpg ruleset can). It would be my first choice for anything historical, alternate history, action oriented historical gaming, modern action + supernatural, for a Night's Black Agents (it was my first choice . . .

That's all extremely true. Since that's pretty much my preferred style in TTRPGs, it suits me well.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Calculate facing. Calculate actions available to do in 1 second. Calculate attack roll. Roll active defense. Roll passive defense. Roll damage. Roll hit location. Roll damage penetration through armor. Calculate actual damage. Roll health + knockdown + shock + consciousness checks.

15 minutes later, someone else gets a turn.

In all RPGs, speed and pacing are key to fun, and practice is key to speed. The attack/retreat/defense/damage loop is the most complicated thing in GURPS, but it's also something that can and should be reduced to only a few seconds:

GM: Kared, the peshkali attacks you in a whirlwind of blades! [rolls a handful of dice, or pushes a button six times on a dice app]

Kared: I retreat, parrying furiously! [Both GM and Kared know that Kared will have to Dodge after the first three parries, so he doesn't say that out loud.]

GM: [counts dice] Four successes! Defend at -1.

Kared: [rolls dice] Parry, parry, failed parry.

GM: [glances down, rolls again twice, checks a table on the GM screen] That's, uh, 17 cutting damage to the face. You take 25 points of injury. Roll knockdown at -5.

Kared: [rolls three times] I'm not dead or unconscious, but I am stunned. And prone.

GM: The peshkali finishes its attack routine. What was your fourth defense roll? [rolling]

Kared: A 6.

GM: You've got a -7 penalty for being stunned and prone, and -4 to Dodge for being wounded. I think it still hits you, for [glances down] 12 cutting damage to the torso. Is that 10 points of injury?

Kared: [glumly] 9. I have DR 6. [rolls another death check] At least I'm still alive. Argua, help me!

That's six attacks in about a minute.

 

[troopersjp]

I love GURPS. I've been running and playing it since 1988. It is one of my favorite systems. It is my absolute favorite combat system. Actually, I love everything about it. I tend to use it for realistic-flavored campaigns. I run and play lots of different systems. And I also choose the system that will allow the concept I'm thinking about really sing. Sometimes that will be FATE. Sometimes that will be GURPS. Sometimes that will be something else altogether. But there are definitely concepts I only want to run in GURPS.

 

[kronovan]

I was late to the party on GURPS, only ever buying the 4e Character and Campaign PDFs. Maybe it's because I came in so late and missed the earlier glory of the source books, but GURPS hasn't grabbed me and I've never run it. I voted "It's alright I guess."

I've only played it twice -1st session was due to the boastings of a player at our tabletop miniatures club. I was complaining about the TTRPG rules adaptation for one of our more popular miniatures games. I mentioned I'd instead been exploring running the setting with a fan-made adaptation to SWD, and that player went on and on about how GURPGS could do it so much better! He was so long winded with the details, that he sold me and I asked him to run a session for us. To put it lightly, the resulting session was a train wreck.

At that point I hadn't given the rules a thorough read, so I was going in more or less blind. I can no longer remember the specific areas where the experience was so poor, just that everyone at the table, apart from the GURPS buddies the GM had invited, didn't want a follow up session. It should be noted that those buddies had built their own PCs. Some of those experienced players made comments to the tune of, you should have built your own PC and RTFM. Which was annoying for new players who didn't know the rules well enough to build a PC and who'd let the GM know they weren't familiar with the system. So one thing for sure; the GM errored in matching up players that would support a positive play experience.

The 2nd session was a series of Weird War II adventures and the GM was obviously skilled and built some quality, balanced pregens. For the most part those sessions ran fine and I can see where GURPS can at least be a good set of rules for Historical Fantasy in the modern era. In contrast to my 1st experience and having since browsed the WW II PDF, it's become apparent that the GM put a lot of effort into setting the stage for those adventures. Almost everyone of the players were new to GURPGS, but most had played some medium -to- heavy crunch TTRPGs like Pathfinder 1e. The GM did a good job of teaching and facilitating the rules, which was good because there was a fair amount of crunch to digest.

The biggest barrier to me mustering up the enthusiasm to run GURPS, are the skills. There's so damn many that I find myself overwhelmed looking at the length of the list, let alone reading their details. And on the subject of skills; I can't fathom why the 4e Character book's chapter on Templates doesn't discuss how to pare down the list. Maybe I'm missing something, but to me it seems logical that a discussion on templates should have some focus on genres and which of the 300+ skills wouldn't be appropriate for them. Instead it just throws some example 100 point archetypes on the pages with lots of itty bitty text around which attributes, advantages, disavantages and primary, secondary and background skills should be taken at these amount of points. Thankfully all the archetype builds are the same points value.

I can't read the Character book without thoughts of "are your FREAKING kidding me, you wrote an entire book on characters and don't give concrete examples of how to shorten the skills list!" I know some of the paring down is obvious, but it isn't for all skills and that's one heckuva long list for a GM to read before they can make correct, appropriate decisions. I did have the thought that the source books might vary well present reduced skill lists, but when I finally tracked down a LGS that had a few, those I browsed didn't. The "I guess" part of that voting choice is actually appropriate for me, because I get the feeling with the two 4e core PDFs that it's assumed I've had prior experience with the system. If I was more experienced with the rules and all my game play and attempts to read through the core PDFs were in line with my WW II experience, I'd no doubt be able to bump my vote up to "It's pretty good."

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

The biggest barrier to me mustering up the enthusiasm to run GURPS, are the skills. There's so ... many that I find myself overwhelmed looking at the length of the list, let alone reading their details. And on the subject of skills; I can't fathom why the 4e Character book's chapter on Templates doesn't discuss how to pare down the list. Maybe I'm missing something, but to me it seems logical that a discussion on templates should have some focus on genres and which of the 300+ skills wouldn't be appropriate for them. Instead it just throws some example 100 point archetypes on the pages with lots of itty bitty text around which attributes, advantages, disavantages and primary, secondary and background skills should be taken at these amount of points. Thankfully all the archetype builds are the same points value.

I can't read the Character book without thoughts of "are your FREAKING kidding me, you wrote an entire book on characters and don't give concrete examples of how to shorten the skills list!" I know some of the paring down is obvious, but it isn't for all skills and that's one heckuva long list for a GM to read before they can make correct, appropriate decisions. I did have the thought that the source books might vary well present reduced skill lists, but when I finally tracked down a LGS that had a few, those I browsed didn't. The "I guess" part of that voting choice is actually appropriate for me, because I get the feeling with the two 4e core PDFs that it's assumed I've had prior experience with the system. If I was more experienced with the rules and all my game play and attempts to read through the core PDFs were in line with my WW II experience, I'd no doubt be able to bump my vote up to "It's pretty good."

In my opinion, this underscores the fact that GURPS isn't a game, it's a toolkit for creating games of which Dungeon Fantasy RPG (Powered By GURPS) is one example. Some people seem to be able to get away with skipping the "create a game" step and playing directly out of the GURPS rulebooks, but if I were trying to run e.g. a Mission Impossible game for new players using GURPS, the first thing I would do is pull together character creation rules: here are some skills you get automatically, here are other skills you can get optionally, here are some advantages and disadvantages, and here is your gear list with prices for everything. It will be a subset of the GURPS Basic + High Tech skills/advantages/disadvantages/gear, but it turns out that omitting stuff (that they're not allowed to have anyway) is really important to the player experience!