Grading Daily Powers
- Thread starter keterys
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keterys
First Post
Hmm, that's a very interesting point about ranged knockdown against fliers. I wonder how often that will come up. Hmm.
Installs for work ran several hours late then my wife wanted us to play the Wii, so didn't get the daily 9s up. I do have to say that the disparities are getting to be a bit more startling for me. I really wish I'd been in on the playtesting for 4e to maybe see some of the evolution of these powers.
Installs for work ran several hours late then my wife wanted us to play the Wii, so didn't get the daily 9s up. I do have to say that the disparities are getting to be a bit more startling for me. I really wish I'd been in on the playtesting for 4e to maybe see some of the evolution of these powers.
Goumindong
First Post
Walking wounded is actually fantastic.
Against melee enemies that are at range, knockdown is as good as a daze.
Against a melee enemy, any decently reliably push powers also can become like a daze. E.G. take an enemy with a move of 6. He is 6 squares away and you walking wound him.
He falls, gets back up, charges you. At the end of its movement before its attack, if falls prone...
You do your thing and shift 1 square away, the wizard pushes him 3 squares away. He gets up moves 4 squares to re-engage and... falls prone.
Combine with difficult terrain and you only need to push 3
Combine with Slows and you only need a push 1 or a shifting power. The enemies speed gets set to two, shifting one means that it has to get up, then move 2 squares to you. Its movement ends it cant attack since its taken two move actions... its moved over half its move and so falls prone again.
Against melee enemies that are at range, knockdown is as good as a daze.
Against a melee enemy, any decently reliably push powers also can become like a daze. E.G. take an enemy with a move of 6. He is 6 squares away and you walking wound him.
He falls, gets back up, charges you. At the end of its movement before its attack, if falls prone...
You do your thing and shift 1 square away, the wizard pushes him 3 squares away. He gets up moves 4 squares to re-engage and... falls prone.
Combine with difficult terrain and you only need to push 3
Combine with Slows and you only need a push 1 or a shifting power. The enemies speed gets set to two, shifting one means that it has to get up, then move 2 squares to you. Its movement ends it cant attack since its taken two move actions... its moved over half its move and so falls prone again.
keterys
First Post
Daily 9 Analysis
*CLERIC*
C+ / Astral Defenders
B+ / Blade Barrier
A / Divine Power
B / Flame Strike
Astral Defenders is not something that leaps forward as a good power and if not used well it might not result in anything, but it doesn't require an action to maintain to getting 4 OAs out of it (or completely denying a couple rounds of actions from targets) shouldn't be too hard, which makes it more than respectable damage.
Blade Barrier is quite a lot of automatic damage to targets in the wall area. The wall is pretty small, however, so after the initial placement you may not get much benefit out of it.
Divine Power is a weapon attack vs Fort in a close burst 2, which would already make it a very good pick, but you get to add on regeneration 5 for the rest of the encounter (fantastic) and +2 AC to your allies in the area and it's a possible contender for A+.
Flame Strike is a decent sized area that's enemies only and the ongoing damage can be a ton if it hits.
*FIGHTER*
C+ / Shift the Battlefield
C+ / Thicket of Blades
C+ / Victorious Surge
Shift the Battlefield is a solid close burst 1 for reasonable damage and a slide 1 kicker.
Thicket of Blades used to be amazing before the reliable errata and now it's quite a bit less impressive since you're likely to hit at least once and you do no damage on a miss. 3W in a close burst is still respectable.
Victorious Surge is Comeback Strike plus 1W that doesn't cost a surge. Reliable self healing is still a good thing.
*PALADIN*
B- / Crown of Glory
B- / One Stands Alone
C+ / Radiant Pulse
Crown of Glory is pretty nifty, but autoslowing enemies already adjacent to you is more "cool" than "powerful". Decent damage and radiant and against Will are all high points. No half damage on miss and the required sustain action are low points.
One Stands Alone has a very nice 'Effect', especially if you luck out and multiple enemies fail the save. I think the prereq is an annoying limitation on a burst power to my mind and no damage on miss again, but vs Will, radiant damage, and it's good if the group has no other melee or the paladin can get ahead in the first round.
Radiant Pulse has a neat sustain that you can't actually save against, but unfortunately it's tricky to work correctly and easy for enemies to avoid being hit by. It's also a letdown if you miss and vs Fortitude. Fun if you get it working, though.
*RANGER*
B+ / Attacks on the Run
C- / Close Quarters Shot
C / Spray of Arrows
C / Swirling Leaves of Steel
Attacks on the Run is an excellent power, giving you a move and two attacks at 3W miss for half at any point in the move. Which means that even on a complete miss you got a move out of it and dealt a full 3W + modifiers.
Close Quarters Shot is a bit deceptive. Being able to shoot without provoking is good, but the range 1 is a real limitation and close attacks are certainly a lot more versatile. The damage is high at least.
Spray of Arrows is I think a more versatile option than close quarters shot (nothing else because it ups to 3 range), but honestly it could have done something extra on top as 2W small area attacks are fairly common in this range.
Swirling Leaves of Steel is just okay. It's the generic 2W close burst 1 that has come up multiple times at daily 9, but with no extra special effect.
*ROGUE*
B- / Crimson Edge
C+ / Deadly Positioning
A / Knockout
Crimson Edge: vs. Fort, quite good damage and maintains CA, but don't expect it to last long
Deadly Positioning: the pre-attack slide seems almost guaranteed to give you flank (and thusly CA) at least once and it's got some other nice benefits, especially against solos
Knockout: Possible A+ - vs Fort, daze even on miss, easy to land unconscious to lead into AP coup de grace or some other trick... but at least damage breaks it.
*WARLOCK*
C+ or B+ / Curse of the Black Frost
C+ / Iron Spike of Dis
C / Summons of Khirad
C- / Thief of Five Fates
Curse of the Black Frost gets two scores because I suspect there will be those who rule the effect damage triggers only once per turn and those who rule it triggers every single time the target moves. At any rate, it requires a willingness to bounce the target a bit, but if you can and they fail the save even once the damage can really ramp up since you can add weapon enhancement and feat bonus (and vulnerability) to every time the damage triggers.
Iron Spike of Dis does decent damage and immobilizes. Definitely a decent choice.
Summons of Khirad depends a lot on the environment. If you can place someone in a spot where they'll take significant damage or be otherwise screwed, it can be a real boon. If not, it's pretty subpar.
Thief of Five Fates is a pretty cool effect in rare circumstances, most likely briefly, though it's crippling for some corner cases (like a Tarrasque's silly low Will). It doesn't do any damage, it sometimes doesn't do anything at all even if you hit, has no effect on miss, and uses up your action to use up your enemies so it's only really useful against Solos. For some campaigns, perhaps this will see more use but I think it's just a bit too limited.
*WARLORD*
C+ / Iron Dragon Charge
B- / Knock Them Down
C+ / White Raven Strike
Iron Dragon Charge can sure net a lot of charges, but charging is often not the best use of your action, often invites OAs, or really can only happen a limited number of times. Assuming you can get a couple ally charges in and hit a bit with it, though, it still ends up decent. If there are a lot of 'can use this power as a charge' powers, maybe this is cooler?
Knock Them Down is yet another warlord power about knocking down all the enemies. It does give everyone the ability to move a few squares even if they don't want to knock people prone and even on a miss is an auto prone, which is pretty cool.
White Raven Strike is a pretty nice amount of temp hp at the level you get it, but doesn't scale at all.
*WIZARD*
B / Ice Storm
C+ / Lightning Serpent
C+ / Mordenkainen's Sword
A / Wall of Fire
Ice Storm is a nice big area and it either slows or immobilizes in difficult terrain, which makes it very easy to force an enemy to not go anywhere (making it good for laying on top of another zone). Quite good.
Lightning Serpent is decent damage and is a guaranteed slow.
Mordenkainen's Sword at least only takes a minor action to get another attack. It really needs to be able to get off several attacks in a battle to truly shine, which I'm sure it can do in some, but it's eating up some move actions and minors in the meantime. In an optimal situation you can really amp damage (like in a big fight where you can put it in a good spot and get off 10 attacks with it)
Wall of Fire is really a very large customizable area when you consider that it does automatic damage in its own squares and adjacent ones. It's also a ton of movement to cross - particularly amusing if you've got a slowed creature that needs to cross it, but even a speed 6 creature is either losing actions, running, or getting hit by the wall twice in one way or another.
*CLERIC*
C+ / Astral Defenders
B+ / Blade Barrier
A / Divine Power
B / Flame Strike
Astral Defenders is not something that leaps forward as a good power and if not used well it might not result in anything, but it doesn't require an action to maintain to getting 4 OAs out of it (or completely denying a couple rounds of actions from targets) shouldn't be too hard, which makes it more than respectable damage.
Blade Barrier is quite a lot of automatic damage to targets in the wall area. The wall is pretty small, however, so after the initial placement you may not get much benefit out of it.
Divine Power is a weapon attack vs Fort in a close burst 2, which would already make it a very good pick, but you get to add on regeneration 5 for the rest of the encounter (fantastic) and +2 AC to your allies in the area and it's a possible contender for A+.
Flame Strike is a decent sized area that's enemies only and the ongoing damage can be a ton if it hits.
*FIGHTER*
C+ / Shift the Battlefield
C+ / Thicket of Blades
C+ / Victorious Surge
Shift the Battlefield is a solid close burst 1 for reasonable damage and a slide 1 kicker.
Thicket of Blades used to be amazing before the reliable errata and now it's quite a bit less impressive since you're likely to hit at least once and you do no damage on a miss. 3W in a close burst is still respectable.
Victorious Surge is Comeback Strike plus 1W that doesn't cost a surge. Reliable self healing is still a good thing.
*PALADIN*
B- / Crown of Glory
B- / One Stands Alone
C+ / Radiant Pulse
Crown of Glory is pretty nifty, but autoslowing enemies already adjacent to you is more "cool" than "powerful". Decent damage and radiant and against Will are all high points. No half damage on miss and the required sustain action are low points.
One Stands Alone has a very nice 'Effect', especially if you luck out and multiple enemies fail the save. I think the prereq is an annoying limitation on a burst power to my mind and no damage on miss again, but vs Will, radiant damage, and it's good if the group has no other melee or the paladin can get ahead in the first round.
Radiant Pulse has a neat sustain that you can't actually save against, but unfortunately it's tricky to work correctly and easy for enemies to avoid being hit by. It's also a letdown if you miss and vs Fortitude. Fun if you get it working, though.
*RANGER*
B+ / Attacks on the Run
C- / Close Quarters Shot
C / Spray of Arrows
C / Swirling Leaves of Steel
Attacks on the Run is an excellent power, giving you a move and two attacks at 3W miss for half at any point in the move. Which means that even on a complete miss you got a move out of it and dealt a full 3W + modifiers.
Close Quarters Shot is a bit deceptive. Being able to shoot without provoking is good, but the range 1 is a real limitation and close attacks are certainly a lot more versatile. The damage is high at least.
Spray of Arrows is I think a more versatile option than close quarters shot (nothing else because it ups to 3 range), but honestly it could have done something extra on top as 2W small area attacks are fairly common in this range.
Swirling Leaves of Steel is just okay. It's the generic 2W close burst 1 that has come up multiple times at daily 9, but with no extra special effect.
*ROGUE*
B- / Crimson Edge
C+ / Deadly Positioning
A / Knockout
Crimson Edge: vs. Fort, quite good damage and maintains CA, but don't expect it to last long
Deadly Positioning: the pre-attack slide seems almost guaranteed to give you flank (and thusly CA) at least once and it's got some other nice benefits, especially against solos
Knockout: Possible A+ - vs Fort, daze even on miss, easy to land unconscious to lead into AP coup de grace or some other trick... but at least damage breaks it.
*WARLOCK*
C+ or B+ / Curse of the Black Frost
C+ / Iron Spike of Dis
C / Summons of Khirad
C- / Thief of Five Fates
Curse of the Black Frost gets two scores because I suspect there will be those who rule the effect damage triggers only once per turn and those who rule it triggers every single time the target moves. At any rate, it requires a willingness to bounce the target a bit, but if you can and they fail the save even once the damage can really ramp up since you can add weapon enhancement and feat bonus (and vulnerability) to every time the damage triggers.
Iron Spike of Dis does decent damage and immobilizes. Definitely a decent choice.
Summons of Khirad depends a lot on the environment. If you can place someone in a spot where they'll take significant damage or be otherwise screwed, it can be a real boon. If not, it's pretty subpar.
Thief of Five Fates is a pretty cool effect in rare circumstances, most likely briefly, though it's crippling for some corner cases (like a Tarrasque's silly low Will). It doesn't do any damage, it sometimes doesn't do anything at all even if you hit, has no effect on miss, and uses up your action to use up your enemies so it's only really useful against Solos. For some campaigns, perhaps this will see more use but I think it's just a bit too limited.
*WARLORD*
C+ / Iron Dragon Charge
B- / Knock Them Down
C+ / White Raven Strike
Iron Dragon Charge can sure net a lot of charges, but charging is often not the best use of your action, often invites OAs, or really can only happen a limited number of times. Assuming you can get a couple ally charges in and hit a bit with it, though, it still ends up decent. If there are a lot of 'can use this power as a charge' powers, maybe this is cooler?
Knock Them Down is yet another warlord power about knocking down all the enemies. It does give everyone the ability to move a few squares even if they don't want to knock people prone and even on a miss is an auto prone, which is pretty cool.
White Raven Strike is a pretty nice amount of temp hp at the level you get it, but doesn't scale at all.
*WIZARD*
B / Ice Storm
C+ / Lightning Serpent
C+ / Mordenkainen's Sword
A / Wall of Fire
Ice Storm is a nice big area and it either slows or immobilizes in difficult terrain, which makes it very easy to force an enemy to not go anywhere (making it good for laying on top of another zone). Quite good.
Lightning Serpent is decent damage and is a guaranteed slow.
Mordenkainen's Sword at least only takes a minor action to get another attack. It really needs to be able to get off several attacks in a battle to truly shine, which I'm sure it can do in some, but it's eating up some move actions and minors in the meantime. In an optimal situation you can really amp damage (like in a big fight where you can put it in a good spot and get off 10 attacks with it)
Wall of Fire is really a very large customizable area when you consider that it does automatic damage in its own squares and adjacent ones. It's also a ton of movement to cross - particularly amusing if you've got a slowed creature that needs to cross it, but even a speed 6 creature is either losing actions, running, or getting hit by the wall twice in one way or another.
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keterys
First Post
Absolutely agree - that appears to be a transcription error (I put down - instead of +). The wall spells do automatic damage to anyone starting in the area and you can start them on people, so... they're _really_ effective.
The real power of multiclassing feats are really showing for certain level ranges - for example I'm pretty sure a fighter/cleric might be a lot happier with Divine Power than any of the other level 9 fighter options. And the level 5 Rain of Steel is better than any of the level 9 fighter options for that matter.
Just interesting.
The real power of multiclassing feats are really showing for certain level ranges - for example I'm pretty sure a fighter/cleric might be a lot happier with Divine Power than any of the other level 9 fighter options. And the level 5 Rain of Steel is better than any of the level 9 fighter options for that matter.
Just interesting.
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Gladius Legis
Legend
Comeback plus 1W that does NOT spend a healing surge (the text reads "as if you spent a healing surge"). That vaults it solidly into B territory.
Thicket of Blades, even errataed, is definitely better than a C+. The battlefield control you can exert with that power is still second to none. Slowing is awesome for a defender, in general, since they can't escape you easily or attack the squishier party members as easily. The Paladin's Crown of Glory, similarly, is great, especially for keeping next to your DC target so you can maintain it easier.
For the Ranger, Attacks on the Run is an A+ simply because at Lv. 9 you're already doing more damage than most class' Lv. 29 powers. In fact, it is the Fighter's Lv. 15 Dragon's Fangs with a free move action attached.
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keterys
First Post
So, immobilize _often_ does a fairly weak effect (prevents a skirmisher/lurker/artillery/controller from moving away, keeps a brute/soldier on the defender, etc) _but_ in certain circumstances it's as good as a stun, such as when used on a melee only monster that you can avoid completely. I'm not sure on how often that happens - but it would likely increase how valuable immobilizes should be in a general sense, especially area ones since you can get the drop with them in the first round potentially.
Similarly, knockdown by itself is not that impressive but if you can shift 1 away after or push 1 and knock prone and there are no other target options (such as in a corridor) the target can neither stand and attack nor stand and charge, leaving it either losing a round of attacking or crawling and attacking. That makes it quite a bit more valuable that _exact_ 1 square distance.
Any powers that folks feel I slighted unfairly in those respects but didn't feel like arguing with me enough to raise up? (and for shame, if so - argue argue
Similarly, knockdown by itself is not that impressive but if you can shift 1 away after or push 1 and knock prone and there are no other target options (such as in a corridor) the target can neither stand and attack nor stand and charge, leaving it either losing a round of attacking or crawling and attacking. That makes it quite a bit more valuable that _exact_ 1 square distance.
Any powers that folks feel I slighted unfairly in those respects but didn't feel like arguing with me enough to raise up? (and for shame, if so - argue argue
Web
Hi, first post
Just wanted to point something out concerning Web, Wizard Daily lvl 5. Now the way i read that it says any creature ending a move in the zone is immobilized. So... a double move isn't gonna help you out, because they are 2 discreet move actions... or are they?!
... i'm not sure how to read the rules on this: PHB p. 284
One Speed: When you double move, add the speeds
of the two move actions together and then move.
Occupied Squares: When you double move, your
first move action can end in an ally’s space, because
you’re not stopping. Your second move action can’t
end in an ally’s space, as normal.
Now the first point seems to indicate that you take 1 move action, while the second point seems to make a distinction between the two move actions... i always figured the first point was simply to make sure that you can move 5 squares of difficult terrain with a double move off speed 5... but what do i know
so... is there a distinction between the two move actions inside a double move? If there is, that should trigger Web. Also... with speed 5 you would get 2.5 squares before Web triggers (potentially), so in which square are you immobilized?
Hi, first post
Just wanted to point something out concerning Web, Wizard Daily lvl 5. Now the way i read that it says any creature ending a move in the zone is immobilized. So... a double move isn't gonna help you out, because they are 2 discreet move actions... or are they?!
... i'm not sure how to read the rules on this: PHB p. 284
One Speed: When you double move, add the speeds
of the two move actions together and then move.
Occupied Squares: When you double move, your
first move action can end in an ally’s space, because
you’re not stopping. Your second move action can’t
end in an ally’s space, as normal.
Now the first point seems to indicate that you take 1 move action, while the second point seems to make a distinction between the two move actions... i always figured the first point was simply to make sure that you can move 5 squares of difficult terrain with a double move off speed 5... but what do i know
so... is there a distinction between the two move actions inside a double move? If there is, that should trigger Web. Also... with speed 5 you would get 2.5 squares before Web triggers (potentially), so in which square are you immobilized?
