Grapple attempt with claw while already grappling with mouth?

[Joshua Randall]

Mid/high level party on the Astral Plane gets jumped by an Astral Dreadnought (from Manual of the Planes).

They didn't know about its antimagic cone, so they closed with it. First round, it hits the monk with a claw triggering free grapple attempt with Improved Grab. Second round, as a move action, it transfers the monk to its mouth (per the monster writeup), then attacks the fighter with a claw as a standard action, hits, and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an AOO.

The fighter has some sort of feat that lets him beat back grapple attempts by taking an AOO and then applying some function of the damage dealt as a bonus on his opposed grapple check. (Close-Quarters Fighting, maybe?) So, the fighter hits the Dreadnought with his AOO and deals a bunch of damage, giving him an opposed grapple check of around +25.

Now the Dreadnought gets to make a check. Normally, it would be irrelevant, as the Dreadnought has a base Grapple +46, so it couldn't fail vs. +25. However, does the Dreadnought take -20 to its Grapple check for having the monk in its mouth, already Grappled?

Astral Dreadnought statblock
[sblock]Astral Dreadnought CR 17
N Gargantuan outsider
Init +2; Senses Listen +2, Spot +23
Aura frightful presence (200 ft., Will DC 23)
Languages -----

AC 20, touch 10, flat-footed 20
(–4 size, –2 Dex, +16 natural)
HD 18, hp 315
Fort +24, Ref +8, Will +13

Speed Fly 180 ft. (36 sq) (poor)
Melee 2 claws +30 (2d6+16/19-20 plus possible rend) and
bite +28 (2d8+8/19-20)
Space 40 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
BAB +18; Grap +46
Atk Options sever silver cord (n/a)
improved grab (see below)
swallow whole (see below)
rend 4d6+24 (if hit with both claws)
Power Attack

Str 42 (+16), Dex 7, Con 37 (+13), Int 5, Wis 14, Cha 18
Feats Improved Critical (bite, claw), Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Power Attack
Skills Hide +15, Move Silently +19
Possessions none

Sever Silver Cord (Ex) n/a
Improved Grab (Ex) if hit with claw, transfer to mouth as move action;
if hit with bite, can Pin to deal bite damage + try swallow
Swallow Whole (Ex) round after grab, grapple check to swallow;
2d8+16 crushing plus 2d8 acid each round;
PC can make opposed grapple --> maw, another --> free;
or cut its way out by dealing 34 damage (AC 24)
Rend (Ex) if hit with both claw attacks, 4d6+24
Antimagic Cone (Su) 150-ft. cone, as antimagic field except planar travel spells
Frightful Presence (Ex) 200 ft. (40 sq), Will DC 23 or shaken (–2 atks/saves/checks)[/sblock]

 

[Infiniti2000]

The -20 must be chosen to be used by the Astral Dreadnought (AD) in the first place. If he didn't use it against the monk, then the AD is grappling the monk and cannot even attack the fighter. There is no penalty because he's grappling the monk, he simply can't attack the fighter. If you want to say that the AD was using -20 vs. the monk, then okay. He need to apply the -20 penalty to the fighter, but then he would be grappling the fighter. Personally, I don't think he'd have reason to not apply the penalty, so I'd have him apply it and fail to grab the fighter. Next attack, however, no penalty.

 

[SteelDraco]

If the astral dreadnaught is making melee attacks outside the grapple, then it's not using its whole body, and suffers the -20 penalty to every grapple check it makes.

The sequence of events goes like this.

1. Melee attack against the monk, successful.
2. The creature must immediately decide if it wants to use its whole body in the grapple, or just part of it. If it elects to use only part of it, it gets its full normal attack routine, but suffers a -20 penalty to all grapple checks from that point on. If it wants to focus on the grapple, it loses its threatened area, is considered grappling, and doesn't get any more attacks for the round, but uses its full grapple check.
3. Monk gets grappled.
4. Monk gets transferred to the creature's mouth, and presumably it decides to just use its mouth for the grapple from then on. It suffers a -20 penalty to grapple checks against the monk.
5. Creature makes melee attacks against the fighter (though it can't use its bite, since that's where the monk is).
6. Improved Grab is activate, with a -20 penalty to the grapple due to the creature not using its whole body.

 

[Joshua Randall]

Wow, I really screwed up, then. Fortunately the PCs survived, so they won't come after me with pitchforks and torches, I guess.

Now for my next question... later in the combat, the Dreadnought swallowed a psion, who then wanted to manifest powers while inside the Dreadnought's stomach. Should the psion be considered grappled? Should he have to make a Concentration check to manifest?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Yes, the psion is still grappled and thus has to make a Concentration check (DC 20 + power level). The rule: "A swallowed creature is considered to be grappled, while the creature that did the swallowing is not."

 

[Stalker0]

Yeah, this is the "balance" of those collassal creatures with the +billion grapple checks. If he wants to focus on one guy in the party, he'll always make his grapple check. However, if he doesn't want to become a pin cushion for the rogue and actually hurts some of the other guys, he takes a -20, which actually gives the party a chance to escape.

 

[Stalker0]

5. Creature makes melee attacks against the fighter (though it can't use its bite, since that's where the monk is).

This one is not correct. Once you make the -20, you aren't even considered to be grappled at all. You can make all of your attacks normally with no penalty, as long as you maintain the -20 to your g checks.

Think of it as the creature holding the monk with his tongue and still getting to bite.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Once you make the -20, you aren't even considered to be grappled at all. You can make all of your attacks normally with no penalty, as long as you maintain the -20 to your g checks.

Think of it as the creature holding the monk with his tongue and still getting to bite.

No, the creature cannot use the body part that was used to improved grab. The relevant portion with my emphasis:

The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.