Grapple in response to bull rush?

I was reading recently the top ten reasons encounters get trashed and among them was placing the villain in front of the 200 foot drop. It invites the bull rush and the end of the encounter.

I'm not sure how it would work if they villain responded with a grapple? Is it even possible? It makes sense in real world terms (I know this is fantasy). However, there is a vicious cycle between the bull rush causing an AoO then the grapple causes an AoO and so on. I think that the AoO must be done with an "armed" attack (i.e. something that doesn't cause an AoO, any of the improved feats solve that problem of course).

Hopefully my question made sense. I know the DM has final say on the rules, but the DM doesn't want to fall into situations where sometimes a tactic works and other times it doesn't.

cheers,
Dr. G.
 

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I don't think you get a response to the bull rush by RAW (unless there are AoOs involved), though a reflex save to grab onto something would be appropriate and reasonable.

Alternatively, give your villains a ring of Feather Falling.
 
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I was reading recently the top ten reasons encounters get trashed and among them was placing the villain in front of the 200 foot drop. It invites the bull rush and the end of the encounter.

Well, putting him right at the edge is just asking for it. It's much cooler to put him away from it, and have the PCs knock the BBEG over the edge on their own.

I'm not sure how it would work if they villain responded with a grapple? Is it even possible?

The only way it would be possible is in regards to an attack of opportunity, as you point out below, or if the villain had readied an action.

It makes sense in real world terms (I know this is fantasy). However, there is a vicious cycle between the bull rush causing an AoO then the grapple causes an AoO and so on.

The thing is, there's no "and so on" at the end of that sentence. Presuming the bull rusher doesn't have Improved Bull Rush, the villain doesn't have Improved Grapple, and that neither has Combat Reflexes, the way things will go is like so:

1) PC attempts to bull rush the villain.

2) BBEG gets an attack of opportunity in response to the bull rush attempt; he uses it to make a grapple check.

3) PC gets an attack of opportunity in response to the grapple check.

Now, for the AoO the PC gets in step three, he could in theory take some action that itself provokes an attack of opportunity, such as making a sunder or trip attempt, but this ignores that the villain, having only one attack of opportunity per round (remember, nobody here as Combat Reflexes), can't take advantage of it. Hence, there is no "vicious cycle." Besides, it'd be silly for the PC to do something else at this point, since he's already trying to push the guy off a cliff.

I think that the AoO must be done with an "armed" attack (i.e. something that doesn't cause an AoO, any of the improved feats solve that problem of course).

I don't believe there's anything in the RAW about that.

Hopefully my question made sense. I know the DM has final say on the rules, but the DM doesn't want to fall into situations where sometimes a tactic works and other times it doesn't.

But that's the reality of things - sometimes a tactic works, and sometimes it doesn't, whether due to bad luck, preparedness on the part of the enemy, or something else altogether. No tactic works every time.

In the instance that the BBEG makes a successful grapple attempt (making the initial touch attack, followed by winning the opposed grapple check), then things become a bit iffy. The rules for a bull rush don't expressly say that a successful AoO ends a bull rush - as such, you can still push the target back 5 feet or more. However, you're still grappling (and, I believe, the one who initiated the grapple doesn't move into the other character's space until the subsequent round). Hence, you most likely end up grappling, even though the PC pushes the BBEG back.

This could very well result in a situation where the characters end with the PC on solid ground at the edge of a cliff, the villain one square over the edge of the cliff, and both still grappling. That's a situation not covered in the RAW, but I'd say that both characters go tumbling (possibly with a last-ditch opposed grapple check from the character on solid ground to get out of the grapple in time)...which'd be damn cool. :cool:
 

Is it even possible?
Absolutely, it's possible. That's why I love 3rd edition.

Evil Dr. Grignard said:
I think that the AoO must be done with an "armed" attack (i.e. something that doesn't cause an AoO, any of the improved feats solve that problem of course).
Not quite. You must be "armed" (i.e., threaten) in order to get an attack of opportunity, but there is no rule that you must make the attack of opportunity with an "armed" attack.
It's counter-intuitive, but allows for awesomeness like grappling the guy who is trying to bull rush you off a cliff.
 

In the instance that the BBEG makes a successful grapple attempt (making the initial touch attack, followed by winning the opposed grapple check), then things become a bit iffy. The rules for a bull rush don't expressly say that a successful AoO ends a bull rush...
That's correct. A successful AoO does not end the bull rush. However...

Alzrius said:
...as such, you can still push the target back 5 feet or more.
Not "or more." In order to bull rush your opponent more than 5 feet, you have to move with him...and once you're grappling, you can no longer move except by moving the entire grapple, which requires a standard action all its own.

Alzrius said:
However, you're still grappling (and, I believe, the one who initiated the grapple doesn't move into the other character's space until the subsequent round).
Incorrect; it happens the same round the grapple is initiated.

Alzrius said:
This could very well result in a situation where the characters end with the PC on solid ground at the edge of a cliff, the villain one square over the edge of the cliff, and both still grappling.
I don't think that is possible, actually. The way I think I would rule it is: the PC tries to bull rush the bad guy, the bad guy interrupts the bull rush by starting a grapple, the bad guy moves into the PC's space to maintain the grapple, and the PC finishes his bull rush, pushing the bad guy 5 feet back (out of the PC's space and into an adjacent square). Since the PC is still grappling when he resolves his bull rush, he can't push the bad guy more than 5 feet away (because he can't move the grapple), but after he does so, the bad guy no longer occupies the same space as the PC, so he can't maintain the grapple.

Thus, the bad guy winds up back in the space he started in, and neither one is in a grapple. The bad guy has neatly blocked the bull rush, if he successfully starts a grapple. If he doesn't, though, nothing stops the PC from pushing him 5 or more feet and off the cliff.
 

Not quite. You must be "armed" (i.e., threaten) in order to get an attack of opportunity, but there is no rule that you must make the attack of opportunity with an "armed" attack.
It's counter-intuitive, but allows for awesomeness like grappling the guy who is trying to bull rush you off a cliff.
Hmm.. perhaps I'm misunderstanding the question at hand, or maybe reading the rules for unarmed AoOs incorrectly here:
SRD said:
Unarmed Attacks

Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

Attacks of Opportunity

Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.

An unarmed character can’t take attacks of opportunity (but see "Armed" Unarmed Attacks, below).
Emphasis mine.

This sounds like unarmed characters can't make AoOs (though special cases, like monks, are excepted later in the text). Am I misinterpreting, or has the rule been updated at some point? Alas, SRD is my only source at the moment, so I can't check any books for the fully official text.
 
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I'm confused why you're confused, you basically said the same thing as Vegepygmy.

A creature must be armed to get an AoO.
In place of an AoO, the rules allow you to make a grapple attempt (as well as trip or disarm; sunder if you follow the Rules Compendium).
So, Vegepygmy said, you must be armed to get the AoO, but then, strange as it may seem, you can then use that AoO you got due to being armed to try and grab the enemy. Even though if you were empty-handed (and without Imp. Unarmed Strike) you would not be able to do so. Despite, logically, if anything it would be harder to start a grapple with one of your hands occupied holding a weapon.

So...Vegepygmy was making the assumption that the NPC is armed, and can thus take an AoO, and can thus make a grapple attempt. And then mentioning how that is counter-intuitive.
 

It could well be someone with natural weapons and improved grab.

Let's rephrase the question. Say you bullrush a barbed devil. What can it do with the AoO?
 


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