Grapple, Iterative BAB attacks and secondary natural attacks

[frankthedm]

Mods, Could we get a topic split? This "Giant Crocodile - Strong CR4?" thread is now hosting a "Grapple, Iterative BAB attacks and secondary natural attacks" thread

I agree - so from this point on I've shunted the discussion into a new thread. The original thread is here http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=185359 - Plane Sailing

My bad for not giving all the PC's a Spot check (even with a negative modifier). I'll remember that for next time.

Actually the croc gets a +4 racial bonus to hide checks while in water. It also gets a further +10 cover bonus to hide checks if it lies in the water with only its eyes and nostrils showing. As it stands though the depth of the river may not have been deep enough for it to do this.

A 20 to 30 foot croc is even less tall than it is wide. If a boat could safely get down the river then the croc scooting its belly along the bottom could work well enough.

Plus how were the players seated? There is a decent chance the boat may have blocked line of sight for some of the characters, negating the chance for a spot check.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I'm asking you where you got your information on manufactured weapons getting multiple attacks from high BAB when using a natural weapon. Where is the back-up for your "exception"? I don't see one, at all.

Where's the override?

I don't understand what you are asking.

And you still have yet to respond.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I don't understand what you are asking.

He's saying that the natural weapon rules say "You don't get multiple attacks for a high BAB if you're using a natural weapon", and "If you use a natural weapon and a manufactured weapon, the manufactured weapon is primary and the natural weapon is secondary".

He's saying what it doesn't say is "the manufactured weapon is primary and can gain multiple attacks for a high BAB".

So we're understanding that it's implicit that "You don't get multiple attacks for a high BAB if you're using a natural weapon" means "You don't get multiple attacks for a high BAB with a natural weapon if you're using a natural weapon", and that it's not a bar to using your iterative attacks normally for non-natural-weapon purposes, when we allow someone with a longsword and a bite attack to make two longsword attacks at +6/+1.

If you read "You don't get multiple attacks for a high BAB if you're using a natural weapon" to mean "You don't get multiple attacks for a high BAB with any weapon if you're using a natural weapon", then we must disallow the +1 attack with the longsword, because "The manufactured weapon becomes the primary attack" doesn't override the prohibition on multiple attacks for a high BAB imposed by virtue of the use of the bite attack.

-Hyp.

 

[frankthedm]

The full attacks of the chain devil, ice devil & Minotaur.

HORNED DEVIL Full Attack: Spiked chain +25/+20/+15 melee (2d6+15 plus stun) and bite +22 melee (2d8+5) and tail +22 melee (2d6+5 plus infernal wound);

ICE DEVIL Full Attack: Spear +20/+15/+10 melee (2d6+9/x3 plus slow) and bite +14 melee (2d6+3) and tail +14 melee (3d6+3 plus slow);

MINOTAUR Full Attack: Greataxe +9/+4 melee (3d6+6/x3) and gore +4 melee (1d8+2)

Full BAB alotment of manufactored weapon attacks followed by the Natural attacks.

 

[Hussar]

I gotta admit, I'm not entirely following this but, it seems to me that Frankthdm has it right. If you mix weapons and natural attacks, then the manufactured weapon works off the BAB with any iterative attacks that may come in, and then the natural attacks kick in, at BAB -5 (or -2) with no iterative attacks possible.

Thus, regardless of what the Horned devil wants to do, he cannot use is tail attack more than once in a round. Full stop. He could use that tail attack to make a trip attack, true, but, he cannot use the tail to get a trip attack, treat the tail as a manufactured weapon and suddenly gain iterative attacks with his tail.

In the case of the warforged monk, your weapon attack is always primary, so it would be Sword, Sword -5 and then bash. There's no way to gain more attacks.

At least, that's how I understand it. The crocodile has a single attack - bite (or tail) - thus, even if it tried to simply grapple with its bite (rather than try to use its improved grab ability) it still only gains one attack per round. Iterative never applies to natural weapons.

Monks gain iterative attacks by virtue of the fact that their attacks are treated as both.

Or am i confused?

 

[Infiniti2000]

He's saying that the natural weapon rules say ...

Okay, that's all of secondary concern, at best. Neither of you have offered support for your position and I've been asking for it for a long time now. You guys need to stop filibustering.

 

[Nail]

Or am i confused?

I don't know about you, but I sure am.

...and before this thread, I thought I knew how natural/iterative attacks worked. No more!

 

[Hypersmurf]

The full attacks of the chain devil, ice devil & Minotaur.

Full BAB alotment of manufactored weapon attacks followed by the Natural attacks.

Yes - which tells us that "Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons" has an implicit meaning of "Creatures do not receive additional attacks with a natural weapon from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons", because the examples make it clear that you can receive multiple attacks for a high BAB when using natural weapons, with the things that aren't natural weapons.

So again, if I have a BAB of +6 and I make a single unarmed strike and a secondary bite attack, the rule that "Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons" does not prevent me making a grapple attempt with my other iterative attack, because that rule only applies to natural weapons, and a grapple isn't.

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Yes - which tells us that "Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons" has an implicit meaning of "Creatures do not receive additional attacks with a natural weapon from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons", because the examples make it clear that you can receive multiple attacks for a high BAB when using natural weapons, with the things that aren't natural weapons.

Only when you combine those natural weapons with manufactured weapons. There are no rules to support combining other weapons. So again, I ask you to supply them.

Either that or agree that your stance is entirely predicated on the argument that the rules don't say you can't combine other weapons, so therefore you can.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Only when you combine those natural weapons with manufactured weapons.

But I am. I'm combining the bite with an unarmed strike, and using one of the iterative attacks I get for a high BAB to grapple.

-Hyp.