Grappling questions

[Some call me Tim]

I am going to be playing a new 1st level monk. I am not sure of the mechanics of grappling.

I have improved grapple, so I know that there is no AoO when I attempt to start the grapple.

Can I start a grapple as part of a flurry?

Assuming that I can, and make the melee touch attack (on my first attack) and win the grapple check. I am now holding the opponent.

I now deal damage from the melee touch attack. Can I then take the second attack from the flurry? Can that attack be a stunning fist?

If I wish to pin the opponent, do I do that instead of dealing damage? Is that done in the second round if I wish to maintain the grapple?

If I am pinning the opponent, can I deal damage and still prevent the opponent from speaking? Can I flurry while pinning the opponent?

If I take the Earth's Embrace feat at 3rd level, how exactly is that damage dealt? Is it from striking the opponent, or does the pinning itself cause the damage?

Sorry for all of the questions, but this aspect of the game is new to me. Thanks in advance for any assistance.

Tim

 

[Thanee]

Grapple is basically just an attack like any other. Since it is unarmed a monk can use flurry.

Once you are grappling, you can use any remaining attacks to either make more grapple checks (i.e. to pin or simply damage your opponent) or make regular attacks (at -4, since you are grappling). The latter method would be necessary to make a stunning attack, I believe.

If you use one attack in a grapple to pin, that attack deals no damage, but you can use any remaining attacks to deal damage then.

For example, if you have two attacks with flurry, you could use the first to initiate the grapple and (if successful) use the second to pin, or you could use the second to deal damage (damage your opponent grappling action). If unsuccessful, you could also use the second attack for another grapple attempt, of course.

Preventing from speech can be done with a successful pin, you don't have to do anything special to keep that up, it's just part of the pin.

Bye
Thanee

 

[JimAde]

I now deal damage from the melee touch attack. Can I then take the second attack from the flurry? Can that attack be a stunning fist?

There's an incorrect assumption here. Your melee touch attack to initate a grapple does not deal any damage.

As Thanee says, once you're grappling you can use subsequent attacks to do "grapply" things like try to pin or do damage, or you can attack with a light weapon (like your fist) at -4.

I have seen some people take the position that you cannot use flurry to grapple. The rules state:

When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons

But I allow it because I like to see monks who specialize in grappling.

 

[Some call me Tim]

There's an incorrect assumption here. Your melee touch attack to initate a grapple does not deal any damage.

As Thanee says, once you're grappling you can use subsequent attacks to do "grapply" things like try to pin or do damage, or you can attack with a light weapon (like your fist) at -4.

Are you sure? This statement from the SRD led me to believe otherwise:

Step 2: Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3.

Step 3: Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action. If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.

That certainly appears to me that if you reach step 3 (the hold), you deal the damage that the unarmed strike would have dealt if you had not tried to grapple. Am I misreading this?

 

[Hypersmurf]

I have seen some people take the position that you cannot use flurry to grapple.

Right. Initiating a grapple may be an unarmed attack, but it isn't an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon...

That certainly appears to me that if you reach step 3 (the hold), you deal the damage that the unarmed strike would have dealt if you had not tried to grapple.

Absolutely. Successfully initiating a grapple and winning that first OGC deals damage to the opponent.

-Hyp.

 

[Some call me Tim]

As Thanee says, once you're grappling you can use subsequent attacks to do "grapply" things like try to pin or do damage, or you can attack with a light weapon (like your fist) at -4.

Would an unarmed strike be at -4?

If You’re Grappling
Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check.

Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual –4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage.

This isn't clear to me. It says that to deal lethal damage with the unarmed strike is at a -4 penalty. Then, right below that is listed an "exception". The problem is that this exception says that monks don't take a -4 if they wish to deal nonlethal damage, but doesn't address lethal damage.

If a non-monk can deliver nonlethal damage with no penalty, why can't a monk deliver lethal damage with no penalty? The quote below (from the monk class description) further confuses me.

Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

My interpretation is that monk's can deliver damage (lethal or otherwise) without taking a penalty. It would also seem that you can flurry at this point. Is this correct?


Lastly, this reference:

If You’re Pinning an Opponent
You can attempt to damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check, you can attempt to use your opponent’s weapon against him, or you can attempt to move the grapple (all described above). At your option, you can prevent a pinned opponent from speaking.

Can you flurry a pinned opponent?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Would an unarmed strike be at -4?

Absolutely. Attacking with an unarmed strike is attacking with a light weapon; doing that while grappling incurs a -4 penalty.

That's completely different to using the 'damage an opponent' option, which doesn't use an unarmed strike at all; it merely does damage equivalent to an unarmed strike.

My interpretation is that monk's can deliver damage (lethal or otherwise) without taking a penalty. It would also seem that you can flurry at this point. Is this correct?

You can flurry if you're attacking with unarmed strikes or special monk weapons. Using these in a grapple (only light weapons allowed) gives a -4 penalty.

You can't use the 'damage your opponent' option as part of a flurry, because it's not an attack with an unarmed strike or special monk weapon.

Can you flurry a pinned opponent?

Well, in theory, you could flurry with the "Use opponent's weapon against him" option, if the opponent's weapon is a special monk weapon.

That's about it.

-Hyp.

 

[Some call me Tim]

That's completely different to using the 'damage an opponent' option, which doesn't use an unarmed strike at all; it merely does damage equivalent to an unarmed strike.

Thanks for explaining it. I guess I wasn't seeing the distinction between unarmed strike damage and damage which is "equivalent" to an unarmed strike.

 

[Spatula]

Are you sure? This statement from the SRD led me to believe otherwise:

That certainly appears to me that if you reach step 3 (the hold), you deal the damage that the unarmed strike would have dealt if you had not tried to grapple. Am I misreading this?

No, but JimAde was responding to your statement that you deal damage with the melee touch attack. The touch attack itself does no damage - you need to make the touch attack and then win an opposed grapple check in order to deal damage to your opponent.

 

[Some call me Tim]

No, but JimAde was responding to your statement that you deal damage with the melee touch attack. The touch attack itself does no damage - you need to make the touch attack and then win an opposed grapple check in order to deal damage to your opponent.

Right. I knew that once I reached the hold, damage was dealt.

I misstated that is was from the melee touch attack (which initiated the grapple). It is actually from winning the OGC. I think I've finally got it.