Grappling Rules...?

[Raelcreve]

Idea

My problem with grappling is that it has the potential to make combats less interesting.

Certain creatures--large undead with natural weapons, elementals, plants, and oozes, among others--should always attack with a grapple. They lose very little by grappling, and when their opponent relies on either spells or weapons to attack, they neutralize that opponent's threat. It's not at all fun for a PC to be in such a situation, where there's precious little they can do except attempt (with very little chance of success) to break free of the grapple, or to make pitifully nerfed attacks on the monster.

Of course, the PC can be under the effect of Freedom of Movement, which, with the grapple rules the way they're currently written, is the game's best boring spell. It's a buff with no effect except to make other unpleasant things not work on you. Boring boring boring.

So, my changes to the rules:
-Reduce the size modifier for grappling from +4 to +2.
-Add a size modifier for escape artist checks that works in the opposite direction (i.e., smaller creatures can wriggle free).
-Reduce the penalty for attacking with a light weapon from -4 to -2.
-Freedom of Movement provides a bonus equal to caster level on reflex saves or escape artist checks or grapple checks to resist movement-hindering effects.

Daniel

Actually, I've been thinking along those lines. How about this, I'll write something up, put it in the rules forum, then drop a line here letting everyone know its done?

Then you can all pick apart my retarded effort at rules and flame til your hearts content...

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Well, there was this girl....

Yeah, I dated her, too.

 

[eyebeams]

Because, in real life, grappling doesn't do damage -- until you've applied a hard-to-apply joint lock, or thrown your opponent with a high-amplitude throw, or freed up an arm to wind up for an unblocked punch. You can grapple, full-speed, for hours without getting really hurt.

That's if you're being nice. People don't apply submissions because they have to. They could just as easily torque the joint to break bones, or tear connective tissues.

Realism isn't the point of D&D, but here are the characteristics of realistic grappling:
* Both fighters usually end up prone.
* It's hard to submit or immobilize someone standing.
* To hit someone while grappling effectively, you usually have to take a dominant position over the opponent. Hitting from below doesn't work well.
* One-handed joint locks are extraordinarily difficult.
* Except for chokes, many joint locks can incapacitate a limb instantly if they are applied with rapid force. Instead, competitors apply them gradually, which creates incapacitating pain.
* Trained grapplers don't really expose themselves to attack by shooting in to grapple.
* The most successful attacks usually choke the opponent or lock the elbow joint.
* You can be a masterful standup fighter and, while grappling, still lose to a novice.
"Dirty fighting" -- bites gouges, pinches, tears and the like -- are not effecticve counters to a better grappler, because a good grappler can do all this too, and better.

 

[mmadsen]

That's if you're being nice. People don't apply submissions because they have to. They could just as easily torque the joint to break bones, or tear connective tissues.

I said:

Because, in real life, grappling doesn't do damage -- until you've applied a hard-to-apply joint lock, or thrown your opponent with a high-amplitude throw, or freed up an arm to wind up for an unblocked punch. You can grapple, full-speed, for hours without getting really hurt.​

One reason that "real" professional wrestling turned into modern "sports entertainment" is that two skilled wrestlers would generally grapple for hours without getting anywhere.

To actually hurt someone via grappling, you have to apply a hard-to-apply joint lock (generally after achieving superior position, a pin in D&D terms), throw them with a high-amplitude throw (from standing), or free up an arm (while keeping your opponent's arms tied up) in order to wind up for an unblocked punch -- which isn't pure grappling, but is what you'd do while grappling an evil high priest.

 

[Pielorinho]

Actually, I've been thinking along those lines. How about this, I'll write something up, put it in the rules forum, then drop a line here letting everyone know its done?

House rules, perhaps ?
Daniel

 

[Quasqueton]

two skilled wrestlers would generally grapple for hours without getting anywhere.

Two skilled swordsmen can spar for hours without hurting each other. But in *combat*, each stroke is intended to harm. If you hit with your weapon, you do damage. Same with grappling.

No one complains that you do damage with each hit in melee combat.

Quasqueton

 

[LostSoul]

What's the problem again?

I think the grappling rules are too ungainly. But I don't think you can get rid of them while keeping hit points.

That sounds strange, but this is what I am thinking: A regular attack is simple, and it does hit point damage. Any other kind of attack that doesn't do hit point damage, but instead tries for some kind of situational advantage - a trip, disarm, grapple - has to be more complex, because simply dealing damage is often worse than gaining that advantage.

But in an abstract system like D&D, why doesn't a grapple attack just do hit point damage? A regular hit isn't a hit - it just reduces your opponent's ability to fight. I guess that would be going a little too far on the rules light side of things for most people, though.

 

[RFisher]

The grappling rules could be simplified. (But if you want simplified rules, grappling is my last complaint about 3e. )

Don't expect the grappling rules to represent more than they are meant to & you won't have a problem with them.

Yes, it is hard to make a great grappler. Which is how I want it to be. The grappling rules should be a secondary tactic to use when it makes sense.

My 3e PCs have used the grappling rules quite effectively. (& been foiled by a ring of free movement or some such. & it was a 1e module, so it's not like it was thrown in there just to screw with the 3e grappling rules.)

 

[mmadsen]

Two skilled swordsmen can spar for hours without hurting each other. But in *combat*, each stroke is intended to harm. If you hit with your weapon, you do damage. Same with grappling.

I don't think you understand. When pro wrestling was real, two skilled wrestlers -- not sparring, but trying to throw, pin, and/or submit each other -- used to routinely grapple to a standstill for hours.

They could pick up a non-wrestler and toss him on his head, of course. Then pop his shoulder out. But those things are very, very hard to do to anyone near your skill level, and simply wrestling isn't that painful.

 

[Quasqueton]

When pro wrestling was real, two skilled wrestlers -- not sparring, but trying to throw, pin, and/or submit each other -- used to routinely grapple to a standstill for hours.

Boxers did the same thing.

Quasqueton