Grease spell confusion

[MarauderX]

From the SRD - grease spell:A combatant in a greased area must make a Ref save when the spell is cast, and on his turn in the round. If it fails he falls prone and cannot do anything. He must wait till his next turn to make another Ref save. If successful he can stand up and move out. Am I correct in these statements?

Two saves in a round for the target? I thought there was only 1, when the spell was cast. Then on the targets turn he must make another to move, or if the target can fly, levitate, etc, there would be none. I just know that I would hate to be the target of that and have to make 2 saves in the same round - it just doesn't seem fair compared to all of the other spells out there.

 

[Pielorinho]

Just to make sure I wasn't channeling the Voice of Rectum, last night I held a candle up to a saucer of olive oil. Ten seconds of close proximity to flame didn't even begin to heat the oil up.

If someone with a blowtorch wants to try the experiment, I'd be interested in hearing the results; for now, I'm satisfied that grease doesn't burst into flames the first time it's exposed to fire.

Daniel

 

[EPRock]

Grease

Grease normally is not flammable.

Grease in a deep frier, if off will harden, when it is heated up to around 180 degrees it will cook things nicely, and will burn when exposed to fire.

Because they did not state that you can melt the grease and burn it in the description, I do not think that you can burn it

 

[LokiDR]

Not exactly true. It is true that they burn hot, but inflammable/flammable/combustible all have, as part of their definition, "easy to ignite." Again, I challenge you to get a tub of Crisco out of your pantry (or vegetable oil, or whatever oil you've got handy), spread a thin layer of it on a rock, and hold a match to it. Lemme know if it burns.

I never said easy to ignite, and that is not part of my definition of flamable. Rock is not flamable. At high temperatures, it breaks down, but it doesn't combust. Oil/grease will hold a flame.

Alcohol ignites easily. Gasoline ignites easily. Sawdust ignites easily. Crisco and other soft-at-room-temperature natural fats do not ignite easily. And you'll generally want something that's soft at room temperature: too solid, and it'll provide traction, and too liquid, and it'll run off, allowing the victims to gain traction against the floor.

Daniel

You are putting words in my mouth. As I said, a DM is free to say that it takes extreem heat to light the grease. That doesn't prevent the grease from burning. I am not talking about a match, though many heavy greases will burn that easily.

 

[LokiDR]

This is called a House Rule. IMO if a spell does not say the substance it creates is flammable then it is not flammable by default. If you wish to add properties to a spell or alter the properties of a spell then this is a house rule.

So, paper cranes created by a spell are immune to fire? That is a nifty trick. I am not adding anything that wasn't there, I am only pointing out something that others might have overlooked. Grease burns if it gets hot enough. The question is only heat and oxygen. If oxygen is an issue, you have a bigger problem than the grease spell.

There is a defiecance between creative application of a spell and adding propreties to a spell.

Grease burns. I am only looking objectively at the spell.

Iron is also fundamentally flammable .

Sample Game Quote
Player "I cast Iron Body on myself"
DM "Ok. The Kobold walks up and touches you with a torch."
Player "uh..do I take any damge"
DM "You spontaneously combust. You take 1d6 fire damage per pound you weight and then you cumble into a pile ironoxide. Your effective ability scores become 0."

No, iron is not flammable. At high temperatures, it melts. Over time, it oxidies. These are not the same. Take heat away, the iron hardens. The grease keeps burning. Your example is rather silly. I am not talking about rocket science here.

 

[Pielorinho]

You are putting words in my mouth. As I said, a DM is free to say that it takes extreem heat to light the grease. That doesn't prevent the grease from burning. I am not talking about a match, though many heavy greases will burn that easily.

No, I'm not putting words in your mouth; what are you talking about? I'm not restating your position at all.

What I *am* saying is that in my experience, many greases don't ignite when exposed to flames. I think the technical term for this is the substance's "flash point." I'm no physicist, so I'm limited in the discussion by my own experience with exposing fats to heat. When I extrapolate from that, I conclude that the grease produced by a first-level spell is not going to combust when exposed to brief flames.

Daniel

 

[Pielorinho]

So, paper cranes created by a spell are immune to fire? That is a nifty trick. I am not adding anything that wasn't there, I am only pointing out something that others might have overlooked. Grease burns if it gets hot enough. The question is only heat and oxygen. If oxygen is an issue, you have a bigger problem than the grease spell.

Hold a candle to a paper crane and watch what happens. Hold a candle to a puddle of grease and watch what happens.

And there's an issue besides "heat and oxygen": you also need to look at how well the substance in question conducts heat, and whether there's something nearby that can absorb heat.

Have you ever tried the experiment where you heat water in a paper cup held over a candle flame? The paper won't ignite, because most of the heat from the flame is conducted into the water, and water can absorb a significant amount of heat. The paper just gets a little warm.

I'm pretty sure the same thing happens with grease: it conducts heat fairly well, and if it's on a rock surface, it'll conduct the heat into the rock.

I'm unaware of any naturally-occurring grease which has the appropriate viscosity and which will ignite when exposed to reasonably-hot flames. There are some petrochemical derivations, laboratory products, that will ignite much more rapidly; however, I think it's beyond the scope of this first-level spell to produce such unusual greases.

Daniel

 

[MarauderX]

And there's an issue besides "heat and oxygen": you also need to look at how well the substance in question conducts heat, and whether there's something nearby that can absorb heat.

Have you ever tried the experiment where you heat water in a paper cup held over a candle flame? The paper won't ignite, because most of the heat from the flame is conducted into the water, and water can absorb a significant amount of heat. The paper just gets a little warm.

Um, this is not true. The reason the paper cup does not ignite has nothing to do with heat transfer and everything to do with the amount of water the cup has absorbed. I'm not trying to contradict just to be an @$$, it's just physics. If you hold the flame to the cup long enough it will ignite once enough of the water has evaporated from paper, and depends on the cup permiability, thickness, etc. I'm not saying that this experiment is not possible, but the reasoning behind it is absolutely false. There is a huge difference between flammability and heat transfer.

I could find and quote the amount and rate of heat absorbtion for whatever materials, but I think it's unneccessary. Also, another fun fact is that you can put out a match in gasoline. I wouldn't recommend it at home, but the flammability is much higher for the fumes (usually rising from the gasoline as it evaporates) than for the gasoline, and should the match hit the gasoline without igniting the fumes, the gasoline will snuff the match before it starts to burn.

Back to the thread:
I wouldn't judge grease to be flammable in my game as I like to mimic reality as much as possible, but then again it's only a game. If I can tag a critter with the spell then start a grease fire, I would expect the same could happen to the party sometime in the future.

 

[Pielorinho]

Um, this is not true. The reason the paper cup does not ignite has nothing to do with heat transfer and everything to do with the amount of water the cup has absorbed. I'm not trying to contradict just to be an @$$, it's just physics.

Nuh uh.

Helpful quotes from the sites above?

I . . . set a paper cup I happened to have with me on fire by holding it with a set of thongs [sic] in the flame over the bunsen burner. Now that I have their attention (Flames, loud noises, and rapid color changes always get students attention),I take another paper cup, seemingly identical to the first one, and hold it over the burner and wait while nothing happens. I had prepared this cup by putting a few milliliters or ounces of water in it before class. As the students start to get curious as to why this cup has not caught fire I start to get into the explanation of heat capacity again.

I ask the students to guess why this cup didn't burn. They guess all sorts of things but before I answer to affirm or disaffirm any of their answers, I call them (the students) to come up and examine the cup. I let them see that there is water in the cup and aside from this fact this cup is exactly the same as the other which they just saw burn to ash in an instant. I then pour all but a few drops of water out of the cup (this is to delay its inceneration a few second)and return it to a position over the flame. Within a few seconds this cup is in ashes like its counterpart.

Again I pose the question: Why didn't the cup burn at first and then burn later? Usually the class comes up with the answer that it had something to do with the water. The most often heard answer is that the water must have wet the cup. When I point out that paper cups are generally waterproof they are then on the road to understanding heat capacity. There is then one more step in this first part of the demonstration.

I put another paper cup, identical to the others used, on a stand set up over an unlit burner. I have a quantity of water in plain view and I pour a little of it in the cup and light the burner, at the same time I start explaining that water's ability to hold and absorb heat is tremendous. As the water starts to be reduced near total evaporation I replenish it. I then continue to tell the class that it is this "heat capacity" of water that is responsible for the lack of change in the paper cup although its been over an open flame for several minutes. At this point depending on the amount of water in the cup I either allow the water to totally evaporate or remove the cup, pour out the remaining water and replace it over the burner. At this point I state that lacking the water used to absorb the heat what is going to happen to the paper cup and how long will it take? By now the concept of water holding a great deal of heat is pretty well understood.

I don't let it go that easy though. This is where the second part of my little lesson starts. Producing a regular paper lunch bag, a pencil,and an egg, I start with another demonstration. Stating nothing, I open the lunch bag place it upright on the demonstration table. I then crack the egg and empty its contents into the bag. I then take the pencil and use it to roll the bag closed by forming a handle. I then, holding it by the pencil move the bag over the burner flame and then start to cook the egg.

This usually gets the point across before I ask what they think will happen. The fun part is they never let me overcook the eggs. There is a problem though, I can only cook eggs scrambled or sunny-side up, and I like mine easy over!

Daniel
[edited because my quote from the site came out wonky]

 

[Conaill]

The question is only heat and oxygen. If oxygen is an issue, you have a bigger problem than the grease spell.

Actually, oxygen IS an issue. File down iron fine enough (so it has lots of surface area exposed to oxygen) and it *will* burn when exposed to a flame. That's what forms the "sparks" in sparklers. Spray olive oil at room temperature finely enough into the air (e.g. cooking spary onto an open gas fire!), and it will burn very well. Same with, say, molten candle wax (which will otherwise *not* burn by itself). Same with crisco.

But a lump of iron, or candle wax, or crsico, or axle grease will typically *not* burn. It may sustain fire if there are other flammable materials in the area, but it will not burn by itself. Heck, some types of airplane fuel aren't even flammable in liquid form. But if you heat them up and/or aerosolize them...