Grease - Uses of and effectivity.

[Ridley's Cohort]

Against the Giants

I will joing the chorus of fans for using Grease against giants.

I would particularly note that a Cloud Giant can outright kill one PC per round with ease...only if they are holding their favorite monstrously big two-handed weapon.

 

[IcyCool]

Because I haven't played a 3.X bard, and I didn't expect someone to sneak a bardic first-level spell (which the bard doesn't get until 2nd or 3rd level) into a discussion of "true" first-level spells. I shoulda known better.

"sneak"? "true"? Do you think that spell was included in the list specifically to trick you? You made a mistake man, it's ok to fess up to it. No need to throw about slanderous accusations.

FWIW, I agree that unless you have attempted to move through or out of a greased square, you aren't balancing. You seem to think that is "balanced" (pun intended) as well. It is only "broken" in your opinion if it automatically makes someone in its area flat-footed, correct?

 

[Zandel]

Originally Posted by Thanee
Dunno about your common sense, but my common sense tells me, that it is surely pretty hard to dodge an attack while standing on a slippery surface (ice, oil, grease, etc), where one wrong move can cause you to go completely off-balance.

Now this is a bit of a problem. As the rules stand you don't need to make a balance check to fight on a slippery surface but common sense dictates as you have stated that because of the nature of the situation you should have to.

Personally i'd rule that in all combat situations that if you move on such a surface and make the balance roll then you get a second check at a DC = to first DC + 5 or 10, and if sucessful you can fight whithout the flat-footed rule. In the case that you haven't moved entering into combat (being attacked/attacking in melee and the like) you imediately have to make the check to stay on your feet then if sucessful the check to fight effectively.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

"sneak"? "true"? Do you think that spell was included in the list specifically to trick you?

Actually, yeah.

You made a mistake man, it's ok to fess up to it.

What does "I shoulda known better" translate to in your language?

No need to throw about slanderous accusations.

Uh ... okay.

It is only "broken" in your opinion if it automatically makes someone in its area flat-footed, correct?

Yes. It's still one of the best first-level spells, but without the "auto-flat-footed" house rule, it's not broken.

 

[IcyCool]

Actually, yeah.

Maybe you and Shadowdweller have a past history of arguements. If not, I'm honestly surprised at this answer.

What does "I shoulda known better" translate to in your language?

Given the context, and that you thought you were somehow being singled out and fooled?

What do you consider to be "true" first level spells? Ones that you can cast while you are first level? I think that's it, but I want to be sure.

Yes. It's still one of the best first-level spells, but without the "auto-flat-footed" house rule, it's not broken.

I'd certainly agree. Fantastic against anything with a poor Reflex same, and great against anything that moves through it.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Given the context, and that you thought you were somehow being singled out and fooled?

"Singled out"? Not really. But it was certainly (at least partially) a rhetorical trick.

What do you consider to be "true" first level spells? Ones that you can cast while you are first level? I think that's it, but I want to be sure.

In this context, pretty much. Or, more precisely, spells that a first-level caster can cast, which is slightly different. You have to admit, comparing a spell a caster doesn't get until he's second- or third-level with others a caster gets at first-level isn't a proper comparison.

 

[IcyCool]

"Singled out"? Not really. But it was certainly (at least partially) a rhetorical trick.

*shrug* Like I said, unless you and Shadowdweller have some sort of tangled past here, I don't see it. If I were to list 3 1st-level spells, and someone were to say "Spell A isn't a 1st-level spell!", they wouldn't be falling into a rhetorical trap, they'd be wrong.

I guess this is where we differ.

You have to admit, comparing a spell a caster doesn't get until he's second- or third-level with others a caster gets at first-level isn't a proper comparison.

I guess I'd disagree with this. Although I would agree if you were talking about the spells available to Rangers and Paladins. The earliest level that this spell is available to a bard is 2nd level. Pretty much all of your other casters are still only casting 1st level spells at that point.

 

[Armadon63]

For added fun, use the Sculpt Spell feat from Complete Arcane. It's incredibly effective with spells like Grease and Glitterdust, and only has a +1 level increase.

Make Grease a 20' Burst. You can potentially grease an entire room from floor to ceiling. If you center it on a heavily armored fighter, it makes it really hard to get out of the area of effect.

You can do a 120' line and completely cover a 10' wide corridor.

You can do four 10' cubes and get multiple opponents without hitting your allies.

I think the feat is borderline broken when used with spells that normally have a limited area of effect.

You're my new hero!

 

[Jeff Wilder]

they wouldn't be falling into a rhetorical trap, they'd be wrong.

The two things are not mutully exclusive. If they were, it wouldn't be a trick.

I guess I'd disagree with this. Although I would agree if you were talking about the spells available to Rangers and Paladins. The earliest level that this spell is available to a bard is 2nd level. Pretty much all of your other casters are still only casting 1st level spells at that point.

It's the same as with rangers and paladins ... perhaps more so, since most ranger and paladin spells are still true first-level spells.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Below is the full text of an exchange with WotC Customer Service on this issue. The text is unaltered, except to remove my email address (to protect from spam-bots). Note that the exchange is in reverse-chronological order (i.e., earliest messages at the bottom).

Subject
[D&D} When is a character "balancing"?

Discussion Thread
Response (Sam S.) 07/27/2005 11:00 AM

Jeff,

A character is considered to be balancing only while he is in the situation or performing an action that requires him to make a balance check. Not before and not after. Usually, this means that opponents will not be able to take advantage of the character's flat-footed state unless that character provokes an AoO for moving through a threatened square, or if the opponent had readied an action to attack him when he moved.

If he is standing in the area of the grease spell, but not moving, then he is not balancing. If he successfully made his balance check to move out of the area, as soon as he gets out of the area, he is no longer flat-footed. If you did not ready an action to strike him when he moved, and if he did not perform any actions to provoke an Attack of Opportunity, then you will not have the ability to strike him when he's flat-footed.

Same thing on the hill. As long as he is charging down the hill, he is flat-footed. As soon as he slows to a walk, or stops, then he is no longer flat-footed.


Good Gaming!

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Sam S.

Customer Service Representative
Wizards of the Coast
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Customer (Jeff Wilder) 07/26/2005 03:58 PM

> Under the description of the Balance skill, it states what types of surfaces
> it takes for a character to be forced to used the balance skill. Narrow
> surfaces cause you to make balance checks and difficult surfaces force you
> to make balance checks only if you are running or charging.

I very much appreciate the response, but it doesn't really answer the
question. I know "when to use the balance skill." What I'm asking is
"when is a character balancing?"

Example 1: Is a character within the area of a Grease spell balancing,
if he has not attempted a balance check? (For Grease, a balance check
is only required if the affected character tries to move. So a
character who stands still doesn't have to attempt a balance check.
Is he balancing?)

Example 2: A character charges down a hill, making his balance check.
He finishes the charge on level ground and makes his attack. Is he
considered balancing?

Is a character considered balancing only WHILE making the balance
check? Is the character considered balancing for a certain amount of
time AFTER making a balance check? Is the character considered
balancing anytime while on a surface that, IF the character moved,
would FORCE a balance check?

All three of these possible interpretations are different, and which
one is correct would have a profound influence on combat in D&D.
(Just for one example, if the ruling is that anybody in the area of a
Grease spell is automatically balancing, that vastly increases a
rogue's combat ability; a balancing character is considered
flat-footed, and a flat-footed character can be sneak attacked. So a
first-level spell (Grease) could potentially allow 20d6 or more
damage.)

--
Jeff Wilder, San Francisco

"I think I speak for everyone here when I say, 'Huh?'" -- Buffy

On 7/26/05, Wizards Customer Support <wizardscusthelp@wizards.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Subject
> [D&D} When is a character "balancing"?
>
> Discussion Thread
> Response (Sam S.)07/26/2005 09:53 AM
> Jeff,
>
> Under the description of the Balance skill, it states what types of surfaces
> it takes for a character to be forced to used the balance skill. Narrow
> surfaces cause you to make balance checks and difficult surfaces force you
> to make balance checks only if you are running or charging.
>
>
> Good Gaming!
>
> We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you.
> Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire.
>
> To login to your account, or update your question please click here.
>
> Sam S.
>
> Customer Service Representative
> Wizards of the Coast
> 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)
> 425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
> Monday-Friday 7am-6pm PST / 10am-9pm EST
> Customer (Jeff Wilder)07/25/2005 10:28 PM
> Under the description of the Balance skill, it states that a character
> without 5 ranks in Balance is flat-footed "when balancing." But there
> really is no definition of when a character is balancing, and there
> are at least two or three interpretations once could reach by common
> sense. Obviously this is a major issue for rogues in combat, since it
> allows them sneak attack damage.
>
> So when, exactly, is a character considered to be balancing?
>
> --
> Jeff Wilder, San Francisco
>
> "I think I speak for everyone here when I say, 'Huh?'" -- Buffy
>
Response (Sam S.) 07/26/2005 09:53 AM

Jeff,

Under the description of the Balance skill, it states what types of surfaces it takes for a character to be forced to used the balance skill. Narrow surfaces cause you to make balance checks and difficult surfaces force you to make balance checks only if you are running or charging.


Good Gaming!

We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire.

To login to your account, or update your question please click here.

Sam S.

Customer Service Representative
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)
425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
Monday-Friday 7am-6pm PST / 10am-9pm EST
Customer (Jeff Wilder) 07/25/2005 10:28 PM

Under the description of the Balance skill, it states that a character
without 5 ranks in Balance is flat-footed "when balancing." But there
really is no definition of when a character is balancing, and there
are at least two or three interpretations once could reach by common
sense. Obviously this is a major issue for rogues in combat, since it
allows them sneak attack damage.

So when, exactly, is a character considered to be balancing?

--
Jeff Wilder, San Francisco

"I think I speak for everyone here when I say, 'Huh?'" -- Buffy