D&D 5E Great Weapon Master

[Celtavian]

Yes, if you want to deal a lot of damage, you get Great Weapon Master. That's what it's there for. Others may want more defense, and go for Shield Master, which give a bonus action to shove people around, +2 or more vs targeted Dex save spells, and almost-Evasion. Or Mage Slayer, making you a nightmare against casters. Or Heavy Armor Master, reducing the damage of 80% or more of all attacks by 3 as well as getting +1 Strength.

Or for that matter, increasing your Strength from 18 to 20 - that's about a 10-20% damage increase in most cases (assuming no other bonuses to keep things simple, and that you normally hit about 60% of the time for 2d6+4 damage and instead hit 65% of the time for 2d6+5). Of course, that maxes out at 20, but that's what Great Weapon Mastery is for - turning it up to 11.

And I'm saying my experience shows me that Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter are superior to those options. We have a Defensive Fighter Paladin and a Great Weapon Master fighter. The defensive option helped a lot at lower level and was very noticeable.

As creatures grew stronger, it has become less and less of an advantage. If the defensive paladin obtains a magic shield, that might shift again. At the moment killing fast is more effective than AC. Both are wearing plate armor. The shield and defensive style provides a 3 point AC difference.

The damage difference between the paladin's 1d8+4 damage and the fighters 2d6+4 damage is already substantial. 8 versus 11 damage. Then when the fighter uses Great Weapon Master that margin increases substantially. Damage seems to be far better than many effects in this game. No matter how good the effect, at the end of the day you want to kill the creature. Nothing helps that more than feats like Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter.

And the fighter did take Heavy Armor Master. It does a nice job mitigating damage. Didn't prevent him from taking Great Weapon Master. He has toughness as well. He does the most damage because of Great Weapon use including Master, takes hits for less damage than the Paladin, and has more hit points.

 

[Staffan]

The damage difference between the paladin's 1d8+4 damage and the fighters 2d6+4 damage is already substantial. 8 versus 11 damage. Then when the fighter uses Great Weapon Master that margin increases substantially.

That's taking the effects of three separate things that all increase the greatsword's damage:

1. Higher base damage (2d6 vs 1d8, 2.5 points advantage per hit).
2. Great Weapon Fighting (about 1.3 points per hit for a greatsword).
3. Great Weapon Mastery (highly variable effect but in the range of +10-20% damage - ironically, the lower the base damage, the better it becomes).

Then you're assigning the total effect to just Great Weapon Mastery. As shown, GWM itself increases damage by 10-20%, which is roughly the same as increasing Strength from 18 to 20. Fancy that, a feat being roughly balanced with a stat increase of 2 points.

And it sounds like you're comparing a paladin without her spells to a fighter. Of course that comparison is going to come out in the fighter's favor. But the paladin also has Divine Smite, adding +2d8 damage for a single 1st level spell slot, or more for higher-level spells. Or she can use spells like Divine Favor (+1d4 damage per attack) or the assorted Smite spells to deal more damage. She's expected to actually make use of these resources.

 

[Diamabel]

Damage seems to be far better than many effects in this game. No matter how good the effect, at the end of the day you want to kill the creature.

I have found this very much to be true.

An enemy with 1 hp remaining hits just as hard as one with full health.. the extra damage gained from great weapon/gwf often makes the difference between the enemy getting another round of actions(and legendary actions), or being dead.

Combat in 5th can be very swingy, lasting only a few rounds.. the ability to pump as much damage as possible during those rounds is important, as enemies can do the same thing to PCs.

 

[Diamabel]

Additions

And it sounds like you're comparing a paladin without her spells to a fighter. Of course that comparison is going to come out in the fighter's favor. But the paladin also has Divine Smite, adding +2d8 damage for a single 1st level spell slot, or more for higher-level spells. Or she can use spells like Divine Favor (+1d4 damage per attack) or the assorted Smite spells to deal more damage. She's expected to actually make use of these resources.

Paladins can take GWF too ^_^


GWF on a single attack may not look all that impressive.. but what if the fighter has 3 attacks per round? Potential extra 30 damage. 60 on an action surge. Throw in polearm master as well for the bonus action attack for another potential 10 from GWF.

The difference becomes even greater with crossbow expert and sharpshooter. Archery fighting style mitigates some of the hit penalty, bringing it to -3/+10.
At level 11 eldritch knight, you would be looking at 3 attacks +1 bonus attack, +1 attack from haste, +3 attacks from action surge- an extra potential 80 damage in 1 turn.

 

[Psikerlord#]

I'm thinking of house ruling this to include all strength based melee weapons. Mainly because there just aren't any feats for your regular Longsword-wielding guy.

Does this house rule have any immediately noticeable problems / issues?

I think the best way to deal with GWM is as follows:

Change the -5/+10 to +1 Str instead. Keep the rest. The feat can now be used by any str weapon.

If you want to keep the -5/+10 mechanic in the game, instead label it a "called shot" and add it as an extra attack option for anyone who wants to try his luck. Balance wise, I think it is better to change the flat -5/+10 to a -5/extra weapon dice roll.

Personally I believe the whole -5/etc is just overkill, and makes the game worse (more swingy, rocket tag-ish combat, and PCs not operating in the same damage ballpark, which causes all sorts of drama). We've simply removed it and overall table fun has increased as a result (ps - removed it from sharpshooter too).

 

[Thyrwyn]

Maybe I missed it, but why has no one mentioned the Dueling Fighting Style in combination with Shield Master as a comparable alternative to GWM/GWF?

+2 damage on all attacks; Have a good chance to knock your opponent down which controls the battlefield and allows you to attack with advantage; You also enjoy +2 to some Dex saves; Take no damage on any successful Dex save.

Just curious... I'm crunching numbers now...

 

[SirAntoine]

-5 to hit should give +5 to damage. Would that help any?

 

[Celtavian]

That's taking the effects of three separate things that all increase the greatsword's damage:

1. Higher base damage (2d6 vs 1d8, 2.5 points advantage per hit).
2. Great Weapon Fighting (about 1.3 points per hit for a greatsword).
3. Great Weapon Mastery (highly variable effect but in the range of +10-20% damage - ironically, the lower the base damage, the better it becomes).

Then you're assigning the total effect to just Great Weapon Mastery. As shown, GWM itself increases damage by 10-20%, which is roughly the same as increasing Strength from 18 to 20. Fancy that, a feat being roughly balanced with a stat increase of 2 points.

And it sounds like you're comparing a paladin without her spells to a fighter. Of course that comparison is going to come out in the fighter's favor. But the paladin also has Divine Smite, adding +2d8 damage for a single 1st level spell slot, or more for higher-level spells. Or she can use spells like Divine Favor (+1d4 damage per attack) or the assorted Smite spells to deal more damage. She's expected to actually make use of these resources.

Since when did anything looked at by itself cause problems? Most of the problems in any game system are a combination of factors.

I'm telling you that a combination of a heavy weapon with Great Weapon Fighting and Great Weapon Mastery creates a superior combination to other options due to the damage output. You can increase your strength and use Great Weapon Mastery together. So you're getting a 30 to 40% boost with both. Fancy that, a combination of a feat and an increased stat and buffs creating a far superior combination to other options, making it so power gamers have that power gamer option that allows them to outdo everyone else.

I know what a paladin can do. They can match the fighter in burst damage in end game fights. I watch them do it. In everything else, they fall far behind the fighter. Then again the paladin brings a lot more to the table. Myself, I could make a Great Weapon Paladin because the extra defense is not as good as the extra offense without a magic shield. A paladin can take great advantage of Great Weapon Mastery with his oaths. Either +5 to hit or advantage against an enemy. Either way, he can use Great Weapon Mastery at will with smite. It is far superior to defensive fighting with Shield Master. He'll kill faster and as the old saying goes, "The best defense is a great offense."

 

[Celtavian]

Maybe I missed it, but why has no one mentioned the Dueling Fighting Style in combination with Shield Master as a comparable alternative to GWM/GWF?

+2 damage on all attacks; Have a good chance to knock your opponent down which controls the battlefield and allows you to attack with advantage; You also enjoy +2 to some Dex saves; Take no damage on any successful Dex save.

Just curious... I'm crunching numbers now...

I don't have much experience with it. No one has taken it yet because heavy weapons do more damage. Defensive options do allow a good deal more survivability at low level. I think most people play within that 1-6 range. Defensive options didn't stop seeing reduced returns until we started fighting creatures with higher hit rolls like giants and dragons due to high strength combined with high proficiency.

The only two fighting styles that have stood out to date have been Great Weapon Mastery and Archery when combined with Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooting. Being able to spike your damage in a coordinated fashion is a noticeably superior option.

Some ways we do it:
1. Active bless.

2. Fighter Superiority Die with Feinting Attack or Precision.

3. In fights where we're not taxed, my wizard uses the Help action from either himself or his familiar to give the fighter advantage on an attack so he can use Great Weapon Mastery.

It's not hard to set it up so you can use Great Weapon Master fairly often with buffs, individual abilities, and party help. You can't use it every hit. Most don't. From watching it in action, it is an extremely useful feat given there are so few feats that allow one to spike damage.

It's even easier with Archery style given the +2 to hit.

 

[DaveDash]

I agree that Fighter + Archery Style + Bless + Sharpshooter AND/OR Crossbow expert is overpowered. At high levels all that + Foresight is just ridiculous. I've thrown level 17 - 20's (and also been a player) against most of the high level monsters in the book, including a CR24 Red Dragon, with no magic items, and the Fighter with those feats in question dominated. With magic items it would be even worse.

In my other game though, I don't see GMW to be a huge issue yet. But we do have a Paladin instead of a Fighter, so it's in his best interest to hit and then use divine smites instead of using -5/+10. He does use that though against held enemies and has done 6d6+45+21d8 before.