D&D 4E Green Ronin's Pramas blogs on 4e or not 4e

Captain Tagon said:
::cough::White Wolf, Steve Jackson Games, HERO Games::cough::

Yeah. They sure don't bother making d20 games, no siree.

Now, I suppose, it's possible that they'll forever be able to rely on 3E rules, but new editions tends to mean new money.

And they don't have to spend $5K if they just wait a bit, so that's not even an issue.
 

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Henry said:
To clarify: They're only showing the Open Gaming License (OGL), not the SRD before the payment. As defined, you sign the NDA, you see the License, apparently sans rules. If you like the license, you pay 5 grand and get to see the rules but not before then, hence the apprehension.

WOW! That bites it. I'm normally pretty reserved in my posts (at least I try to be) but that seems pretty cutthroat to me...
 

Moridin said:
Honestly, I don't think Chris is saying that at all. He just doesn't know what's being done, and as the owner of his business I think he's right to be cautious. I don't think he's saying anything about not trusting any of us to work on his products...because many of us have! I've written on more than half a dozen Green Ronin projects, and I know others have as well (I know offhand that Sernett wrote the Advanced Bestiary). If he didn't trust the likes of "us" to work on his projects, I have seen no indication of it. That's not counting guys that freelance for both Wizards and Green Ronin, like GR's own Rob Schwalb, Ari Marmell, and so forth.

I think you're being unfair to Chris. He's not being negative, I don't think, just cautious.

Oh no, Rodney reads EN-World still. I hope he hasn't found the posts where I was questioning 4E. :cool:

My opinion on 4E has changed from "wow, I can't believe WotC is trying to force this on us already" to one of "cautiously optimistic". I completely understand GR reluctance to lay down some hard earned cash to invest in an unproven product, sight unseen. I really like GR work (I think Mutants and Masterminds is one of the coolest ideas in the d20 universe of products and one of the very few non-wotc products for d20 I purchased). I really hope that the OGL does allow for the kind of radical and inventive work like M&M and I hope that GR continues to make great products. So long as they do, they'll get some of my gaming dollar.

(Hey GR, check out 7th Sea, I'd love to see what you all might come up with for that game)
 

cperkins said:
WOW! That bites it. I'm normally pretty reserved in my posts (at least I try to be) but that seems pretty cutthroat to me...

Not really. I mean, once you read the rules you'll remember what you read. Maybe not every bitty detail, but certainly the core mechanics on attacks, defenses, character progression, and whatnot.

In other words you'll remember enough to make a rules-lite 4E book. What, then, is the incentive to pay for the full license?
 

Zaruthustran said:
Not really. I mean, once you read the rules you'll remember what you read. Maybe not every bitty detail, but certainly the core mechanics on attacks, defenses, character progression, and whatnot.

In other words you'll remember enough to make a rules-lite 4E book. What, then, is the incentive to pay for the full license?

Even if they read and memorized the rules (bring out the eidetic ninja strike force!), they still wouldn't be able to publish books using the 4e rules until the rest of the world without paying for this early license.

Right?
 

Wolfspider said:
Even if they read and memorized the rules (bring out the eidetic ninja strike force!), they still wouldn't be able to publish books using the 4e rules until the rest of the world without paying for this early license.

Right?

I'd imagine that WotC is more worried about people getting a peek at the SRD, declining to participate, and then having them blab about the specifics of what they saw.
 

I hope Green Ronin goes over to 4e, because I think it would be a wise move for their company (even if they simultaneously published non-4e stuff at the same time).

I'll leave it at that.
 

Cadfan said:
I don't know how WOTC can possibly prevent "another d20 glut." Short of refusing to provide an OGL at all, I don't know what they can do.

If anyone can publish, then anyone can publish as much as they want.

The solution may have been not to let everyone publish. I think the way that some envisioned preventing a glut was to have exclusive licenses for some companies, and not have the game be open at all. It could still be free to use the rules-- but you have to have wizards' expressed permission.

A similar situation happened on Rpgnow.com a few years back. Before GR (or maybe it was WW), etc came over to RPGnow.com, they insisted on "cleaning out the riff-raff" and a lot of smaller publishers were pushed to "the edge" alternate site (I think the lowest-performing half of the publishers, many of which were defunct companies, but others that simply didn't have dazzling cover art or name recognition). Fortunately, Basic Action Games was one of the companies that got to stay on the main site, but a lot of people were hopping mad over it when it was announced (they'd been pushed off the main site-- essentially into oblivion).

I for one, am glad that they haven't elected to go this route-- though not thrilled with the $5,000 buy-in for third parties either (not that it will affect me-- but it will ruin some).
 

Well, he's really only talking out loud and soliciting feedback from his fans on what his company should do, but I personally think that being part of Phase One is something only his bean counters can answer, but failing to support 4E would be disastrous.

First, I don't care what's out at launch. I'll need time to digest the new rules, and I won't be buying any supplements out of the gate except for maybe a WotC adventure to see how they're doing things. I don't usually buy non-WotC supplements unless they suit a specific need of mine for a campaign, are award-winning, or are totally new and badass. None of those three are likely with a new rules system right at launch. From what I understand, a lot of the gaming population is this way, even if they are willing to purchase third party products. So the Phase One participation is a moot point unless they think they can make money off of it.

As to their existing product line, I don't think it can stand on its own in the absence of D&D.

M&M is like what Winston Churchill said about Democracy. "[It's] the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried." It's not hopelessly complicated like Hero, and the overall feel of the system is better than GURPS (which, IMO, has some bizarre artifacts related to its generic, universal nature). It could ultimately stand as a core product, but I don't think it's there yet. It seems servicable as a supers system, but it doesn't make me WANT to run a supers game just because I've read it. The rules aren't elegant enough yet, especially where they interlock their own ideas with the d20 system.

True20 I can't really speak for because it's not different enough from D&D to interest me, and shares enough of the flaws of 3E not to stand out for its rules changes. YMMV. But, the Ice and Fire book, I think, depends a lot on 4E. I'm a huge Martin fan, but none of my group is. Unless there are good rules I can steal there for a 4E game or some homebrew game in an Iron Heroes vein, I won't be buying.

Ultimately, I think a lot of people seem to be a lot more surprised by the license changes than they should be. Everyone seems to want them to fix the d20 glut problem first, and second... they don't owe anyone the right to use their products to make money. When you make your money based off of another company's product, things like this can happen.

Further, while it was necessary to have a mechanism to allow fans to show their house rules off, and for other companies to support D&D, I don't think that games that don't require the PHB, suchs as M&M, True20, Iron Heroes, etc do anything other than cannibalize audience from WotC's products. How many people are talking about sticking with True20 over 4E? Anecdotally, I know myself I stopped buying D&D books for a good year because I was running an Iron Heroes campaign. I think it makes good financial sense for them to tighten up the license, because the old one was too lax.
 
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I think a 4e update to Freeport is a no-brainer, but I think GR can get by on not releasing that right away; Freeport fans will most likely wait.

On the otherhand, GRs other d20 D&D line is the Bleeding Edge series. I like them, but I think they suffer in comparison to Paizo's similarly priced Gamemastery series, at least in cosmetic terms. I'm not sure they are necessarily worth an extra $5K investment, but then again, I don't have access to their sales numbers.
 

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