D&D 4E Green Ronin's Pramas blogs on 4e or not 4e

[Spatula]

Pramas is saying that there is not enough information to base the decision on at this time. Wanting to make an informed decision before shelling out five grand is not arrogance.

 

[Henry]

Didn't the announcement say that potential subscribers to the OGL early got to view the SRD without paying the $5000 once they signed the NDA? Why dosn't the Green Rounin guy just go that rout?

To clarify: They're only showing the Open Gaming License (OGL), not the SRD before the payment. As defined, you sign the NDA, you see the License, apparently sans rules. If you like the license, you pay 5 grand and get to see the rules but not before then, hence the apprehension.

 

[Imaro]

The whole thing strikes me as really snarky.

#1 seems a bit arrogant, but that may well just be a wording thing; #2 is (IMO) where it really gets silly. As Orcus from Necromancer Games and some others have already freely predicted, 3.5 WILL die and 4e WILL take over, if for no other reason than Borders and other retailers that pretty much ONLY carry WOTC and maybe White Wolf stuff will be stocking 4e and not the discontinued 3.5 books.

See I find this absurd. People on the 4e forum claim that nay-sayers should wait until the game is out to judge it, instead of pre-judging. This is exactly what Chris Pranas is doing. Nothing in life is guaranteed 100% and there is the distinct possibility that WotC could loose a sizable segment of their customer base with the transition to 4e. Even if they don't I wonder if supplements and add-ons will sell as fast or as well as they did with 3e. I for one know that I'm not going that route with 4e after all the money I invested in 3e/3.5 (and that's if I choose to go with 4e).

In the end what is snarky about not believing WotC is some unfailable god and that every player of 3.5 will definitely switch? It took quite awhile for the faults in 3.5 to be brought to the forefront. Also the rules will still be in flux when these publishers get them, Hopefully nothing gets sent to print before these final changes are made. He has a company to run and employees to pay and not putting up $5,000 on unseen rules by a company that he doesn't run and isn't privy to the inner workings of doesn't seem arrogant or snarky. In fact I'll say I have more respect for someone who takes the stance of wanting all the cards on the table than a company that jumps on it without even seeing what the OGL restrictions will be. Just my oppinion though, YMMV.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

But popularity doesn't equal quality! There is no objective measure for this stuff.

No, but popularity does generally equal sales. And that's the critical element here.

Would GR support 4E heavily if they thought the rules were great, but that they would bomb with fans? I doubt it.

This may be a tangent, but I've gotten the impression over the last few years that GR is moving away from d20/D&D much more than most of its peers in the d20 early adopters. They don't seem to show much interest in regular old D&D.

Second tangent - about Green Ronin having Death in Freeport out at the initial 3E GenCon - don't forget Chris was still working at WoTC at the time, so he had early access to the rules, more so than probably any other d20 publisher.

 

[Incenjucar]

If 4E doesn't work, D&D as a continuing product line is in deep trouble. I don't see this happening.

If 4E does work, 3E will, sooner or later, go the way of 2e and 1e and Oe and Chainmail.

As such, unless Green Ronin, or any other company, has their own game that is SO good that it blows D&D out of the water, they would be shooting themselves in the foot to fail to support 4E.

And I mean with a thundering vorpal ballista.

 

[cr0m]

Don't forget that GR is a small company. I doubt Chris Pramas can afford to take a risk on something he hasn't seen. What he's doing sounds sensible, not prejudiced.

If I were a small publisher with limited resources, I'd seen Wotc's $5,000 fee as a bit of a slap in the face. $5,000 is a lot to pay for four months of exclusivity, in a market where a book that makes $5,000 is probably a success story.

Does anyone have any idea why Wotc is doing that, btw? I'm genuinely curious.

 

[JoeGKushner]

No, but popularity does generally equal sales. And that's the critical element here.

Would GR support 4E heavily if they thought the rules were great, but that they would bomb with fans? I doubt it.

This may be a tangent, but I've gotten the impression over the last few years that GR is moving away from d20/D&D much more than most of its peers in the d20 early adopters. They don't seem to show much interest in regular old D&D.

Second tangent - about Green Ronin having Death in Freeport out at the initial 3E GenCon - don't forget Chris was still working at WoTC at the time, so he had early access to the rules, more so than probably any other d20 publisher.

Well, on the moving away from d20, after 3.5 hit, a lot of publishers have done so.

And don't discount non-WoTC employees. Outside of Necromancer/Sword and Sorcery, Atlas when talking about early adopters as I believe 3 Days to Kill was also out at Gen Con.

 

[Imaro]

If 4E doesn't work, D&D as a continuing product line is in deep trouble. I don't see this happening.

If 4E does work, 3E will, sooner or later, go the way of 2e and 1e and Oe and Chainmail.

As such, unless Green Ronin, or any other company, has their own game that is SO good that it blows D&D out of the water, they would be shooting themselves in the foot to fail to support 4E.

And I mean with a thundering vorpal ballista.

Emphasis mine: This just isn't true. Green Ronin or really any other publisher doesn't have to have a game that blows D&D out the water for them to come out ahead not supporting D&D. For example...

Green Ronin makes money off...
True20
Mutannts & Masterminds
Warhammer
(released this month) Warhammer 40k (I'm actually more excited about this than D&D 4e)

Now as I see it unless their D&D products sell to a larger fanbase (which it seems is a very small fraction of D&D players) and with more consistency than the products for these games (which while not doing D&D good, are still doing very good as far as rpg's go), then supporting d20 actually doesn't make sense. The resources would be better spent catering and building a fanbase around these products than devoting them to D&D 4e. Or there may be a balance to be struck, where the $5000 doesn't make sense but publishing later might. D&D is not the whole of rpg's and 3rd party publishers are still basically fighting for the scraps leftover from those who actually buy 3rd party products.

 

[Captain Tagon]

As such, unless Green Ronin, or any other company, has their own game that is SO good that it blows D&D out of the water, they would be shooting themselves in the foot to fail to support 4E.

::cough::White Wolf, Steve Jackson Games, HERO Games::cough::

 

[Raloc]

I don't think anyone at WotC would be insulted to hear that Chris likes his guys best. I'd be scratching my head if it were the other way around. "Fourth Edition is so great that I don't know if my team is up to the task of supporting it!"

One bit of confusion based on Chris' post above though: Hasn't WotC said that they'll let Phase 1 folks read the rules before committing the $5,000. In other words, sign the NDA, read the rules, and if they stink we won't hold you to the whole $5,000 thing?

I believe it was noted that they would be able to read the OGL but not the rules (which his post seems to support...he says they'd decide after looking at the OGL, for instance).

(Apologies if this q was already answered.)