D&D 5E Greg Leeds talks about D&D

[MechaPilot]

Who said anything about a player buying a book with the assumption that it would be allowed?

I know I certainly didn't.

Players purchase books with the hopes of using the content. They purchase books to collect them. They purchase books to get ideas for their characters or to save for later when it's their turn to be the DM.

If the player is purchasing the book as a collector, or to use later when it's that player's turn to DM, then whether the player's current DM looks at it is irrelevant. DM review is also irrelevant if the player wants to use the book to get ideas for her characters; ideas can be mined from anywhere. The only part that's relevant to the DM reviewing the material is if the player wants to use that book in her current DM's game. If that is the reason the player is buying the book, then buying it without checking with the DM first is a mistake, and hopefully the player kept her receipt.

Of course a DM is free to be a jerk, if he or she wants, by not caring about what interests his or her players or what they went through to get their hands on a book. Jerk DMs are part of the game too, and they serve a valuable purpose: to teach players who to avoid gaming with.

Everyone is free to be a jerk. However, saying "no" doesn't make the DM a jerk. If the DM had not informed the player of the source limitations beforehand, then that's a separate issue. Also, it just flat out doesn't matter what a player had to do to get her hands on a book. There is no more or less deference owed if the player A) simply bought it in a normal transaction, or B) had to scour several bookstores, used book ads, and online sites to find the book. What a person is willing to do or pay to own something is on that person and that person alone.

Funny...my post advised DMs to review content in lieu of flatly refusing a player for the sake of refusing a player.

I'm not exactly sure how a DM is supposed to give "due consideration" (your words, mind) to a product neither the DM or the player owns, but I don't know, maybe you have psychic powers that other DMs aren't blessed with?

Yeah, you framed it a liiittle differently in your previous post. The way you framed it before made it seem as if the DM owed the player a look at the material simply because the player spent money on it. No DM owes any player a look at anything just because the player bought it. If a player feels that $20-$40 is a significant expense, and if that player is buying the book specifically to use the options therein in her current DM's game, then checking with the DM first only makes good sense. If the DM doesn't know what's in the book, the DM can go to the store with the player and they can look at it together. The DM can also talk with other DMs she knows (and hopefully trusts/respects) to find out their opinion on the material. She can also go on forums like this and ask other DMs what they think to try to see if there is a general consensus.

 

[Reinhart]

That's not entirely true. They, like every business, have multiple goals. Nobody decides that the way to maximize profits is to produce tabletop role playing games. There are much easier ways to make money.

Absolutely. And the thing about WotC is that they're not completely autonomous from Hasbro. Hasbro is the corporation that has to maximize profits within their mission statement, but the way that a division of a publicly traded corporation does that is very different from a solitary firm. A solitary firm pursues profit by seeking to produce until the marginal increase in profit reaches zero. A publicly traded firm instead seeks to maximize return on investment. So instead of chasing every last dollar, they chase only the "cheapest" money to make, to a specific limit.

And even that is a gross simplification, because many necessary aspects of running a business around mass market merchandise don't directly generate much revenue. In those cases the corporation needs to know or at least believe that those aspects contribute value elsewhere. That's what Leeds is talking about when he brings up the buzz-word "synergy." I suspect that's at least part of the reason that Hasbro funds WotC's management of the D&D brand: Hasbro wants D&D to be a brand that is bigger than table-top roleplaying, but even if RPG books aren't the best ROI, they still need to keep making books to maintain the brand relevance for its core fan-base.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

That would be a surprising attitude for a tabletop role playing game company to take if true.

not really.... if you hear some people tell it "Hasbro/wotc is only interested in making money, and don't care about the game at all just there bottom line"

how ever I can falsefy that right now... any "suit" who knows how to do basic number will look at wotc and say "They are not spending there money effectively." the reason is every $ they spend on magic makes them more then every $ they spend on D&D, and if your return on investment is better with X than Y, and all you care about is bottome line, you put all your money on X (Magic cards) and spend 0 on Y (D&D)...

Take it out of games and RPGS and imagine for a moment you are a soulless suit that just cares about the bottom line, and your company makes widgits and dodads. right now you spend $50 making widgits, and $75 making dodads, you make $100 profit on widgits, and $450 profit on dodads... you stop making widgits and you put $125 into making dodads it only increases the profit to $600... what do you do? Now imagine the same thing, but you love widgits, and a bunch of your employees make real good cases for widgits still could maybe make $150 profit someday if you get lucky with a widgit movie or book...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

And even that is a gross simplification, because many necessary aspects of running a business around mass market merchandise don't directly generate much revenue. In those cases the corporation needs to know or at least believe that those aspects contribute value elsewhere. That's what Leeds is talking about when he brings up the buzz-word "synergy." I suspect that's at least part of the reason that Hasbro funds WotC's management of the D&D brand: Hasbro wants D&D to be a brand that is bigger than table-top roleplaying, but even if RPG books aren't the best ROI, they still need to keep making books to maintain the brand relevance for its core fan-base.

ALternate theory... there is a person or group of persons who WANTS D&D to be the best it can be, and needs to sell the idea of D&D value, so they are making the best choices they can....

 

[Shasarak]

not really.... if you hear some people tell it "Hasbro/wotc is only interested in making money, and don't care about the game at all just there bottom line"

how ever I can falsefy that right now... any "suit" who knows how to do basic number will look at wotc and say "They are not spending there money effectively." the reason is every $ they spend on magic makes them more then every $ they spend on D&D, and if your return on investment is better with X than Y, and all you care about is bottome line, you put all your money on X (Magic cards) and spend 0 on Y (D&D)...

If that was true then Magic would have an unlimited budget and return an unlimited profit.

But unfortunately this is not the case.

Take it out of games and RPGS and imagine for a moment you are a soulless suit that just cares about the bottom line, and your company makes widgits and dodads. right now you spend $50 making widgits, and $75 making dodads, you make $100 profit on widgits, and $450 profit on dodads... you stop making widgits and you put $125 into making dodads it only increases the profit to $600... what do you do? Now imagine the same thing, but you love widgits, and a bunch of your employees make real good cases for widgits still could maybe make $150 profit someday if you get lucky with a widgit movie or book...

If your company is in the widget business and can not make money with widgets then you should get out of the widget market. That is just basic widget business 101 right there.

And if it makes you feel any better Berkshire Hathaway started as a textile manufacturer so it is possible for a business to change and be successful while other businesses in the textile manufacturing industry are still around and are also still successful.

 

[ccs]

One of the issues I had with 3E power creep was that I simply did not have the time to read every new sourcebook--whether from WotC or a 3rd Party product--that landed on the store shelves.

Of course DMs have the right to limit content, but if a DM is going to make that decision he or she out to take the time to read and understand the content. Spending $20-$40 on a book just to have a DM say no without so much as a look at it is bad form.

It's not as simple as issuing a yes or no.

Yes, it is that simple.
As the DM I'm running a game where material from xyz is allowed. You will know this going in. I reserve the right to update the list in the future.
Beyond that? I don't care what books you own. I also don't care what future books you buy. Nor do I care why you bought them or what you're doing with them. But just because you spent your $ on something doesn't entitle you to use it in the game I'm running.

And no, I will not bother to read a book I'm not interested in, that won't be used in the game.
For example; Eventually WoTC will publish a Psionics book. I do not like psionics. Never have. Thus I've ruled that they don't exist in games I'm running. You know this going into one of my games.
So when this book eventually arrives? I will ignore it. If any of the people I play with buy it? So what? They obviously don't intend to use it as a player with me as the DM.

 

[Reinhart]

ALternate theory... there is a person or group of persons who WANTS D&D to be the best it can be, and needs to sell the idea of D&D value, so they are making the best choices they can....

That's not contradictory from what I'm talking about. I think it's certain that the designers on the team want to keep making the best D&D RPG they can, and not just because it's their job. To keep doing that though they have to reinforce the notion that their work is creating value for Hasbro beyond just revenue. Coordinating and explaining that is the specific job of their brand managers, who WotC has been hiring and promoting lately.

 

[darjr]

Chris Perkins at Game Hole Con talked about the business plan going forward. And it's story oriented. Listen in for more details, I will say it leaves room for splats but he's dead set against the old model. And it sounds like it's going great for them. It really sounds like a guy who loves his job and what he's doing and what he's accomplished and enjoying his works success.

 

[JohnLynch]

Of course DMs have the right to limit content, but if a DM is going to make that decision he or she out to take the time to read and understand the content. Spending $20-$40 on a book just to have a DM say no without so much as a look at it is bad form.

It's not as simple as issuing a yes or no.

I've told my players ahead of time as to what options are legal in my current campaign. This list will not be added to for the duration of this campaign. The list might be expanded for the next campaign, but there is no guarantee. If you set expectations from the beginning then your players will most likely be discouraged from buying the latest splat.

That would be a surprising attitude for a tabletop role playing game company to take if true.

Authors routinely tell people "don't quit your day job" when they talk about wanting to get into writing. Given the tabletop market is smaller than the market for novels it hardly seems surprising for one to have the self-realisation that they're not finding the most efficient ways to make money.

 

[Shasarak]

Authors routinely tell people "don't quit your day job" when they talk about wanting to get into writing. Given the tabletop market is smaller than the market for novels it hardly seems surprising for one to have the self-realisation that they're not finding the most efficient ways to make money.

I am sure that even JK Rowling was told not to quit her day job when she wanted to get into writing.

And I bet she is glad that she did not listen to those people.