D&D (2024) Greyhawk 2024: comparing Oerth and Earth

[Parmandur]

The fantasy formula is: take something familiar then add a twist with something unfamiliar.

The most serious difficulties with the Greyhawk setting is the reliance on and even heightening of reallife negative stereotypes.




I agree there is a difference between public and private. But.

In the age of internet, there is little or no difference when private campaigns are often online.

D&D fandom gaming culture does well to adopt cultural sensitivity as a discipline that is part of world building.

I feel most D&D gamers understand the difficulties, and want to figure out how to get past them and move forward in a constructive way.

But Gygax wasn't taking one thing and adding a twist: he was throwing a bunch of stuff in a pot for each area. It is not one to one.

 

[Yaarel]

Bit Gygax wasn't taking one thing and adding a twist: he was throwing a bunch of stuff in a pot for each area. It is not one to one.

Some of that amalgamation is racism that cant tell the difference between one Indigenous and an other, or the difference between Japanese and Chinese, or the difference between Norse and German. The racism lacks understanding why differences are important and can be sensitive.

 

[Parmandur]

Some of that amalgamation is racism that cant tell the difference between one Indigenous and an other, or the difference between Japanese and Chinese, or the difference between Norse and German. The racism lacks understanding why differences are important and can be sensitive.

Can be, but the point is it was never "Rovers of the Barrens = The Cree" or any one specific parallel.

 

[Yaarel]

The "default" culture of the 1980 Greyhawk setting is White American.

The setting characterizes him and his identity as the hero of the adventure, as the stories present themselves for his straight cisgender male gaze, while recycling troubling racist caricatures.


Any reallife player who isnt one or more of these categories also wants to enjoy being the hero of the story.

The fact that the Flan are Indigenous North Americans is a good thing. Players who are Indigenous can see themselves as part of the D&D storytelling. The only cautionary is, the portrayal of the Flan must be sensitive to the experiences of reallife Indigenous peoples. The same is true for every ethnicity that exists within Oerth, the world of Greyhawk.

 

[Hussar]

This is how Gygax creates a culture: consider his invention of the Drow.

Gygax borrows the concept of Light Elf versus Dark Elf from reallife Norse folkbelief. He misunderstands it as if referring to American skin-color racism. The Norse terms refer to hair color, but apply to literal luminosity verses dwelling in darkness, and moreso to the mindful intentions. Then as a twist, he throws in Greek Arachnea. Then he calls this amalgam from reallife sources by the Scottish word "drow" (which actually derives from the Norse term trǫll).

Gygax creates all of the human cultures in the same way, a reallife reference with a twist. For example, the "North" "Barbarians" are plainly a Norse culture, especially Norwegian. In reallife, I have more than one relative named "Ingrid". It is almost entirely negative stereotypes made deeply worse by fusing it with the assumptions N*zi German racism and cultural appropriation and misrepresentation. N*zis are enemies. My family fought in the underground against the N*zis. Some family had to escape to Sweden. To Germanize and N*zify my heritage feels horrifying.


In any case, the point is, even when creating a fictional culture, sensitivity.

That's a bit of a misreading of drow. The drow were written as a blatant send up of feminism. The whole black/white thing was never racial at all.

 

[Parmandur]

That's a bit of a misreading of drow. The drow were written as a blatant send up of feminism. The whole black/white thing was never racial at all.

I'm pretty sure the original was a gag on a photo negative of a "standard" Elf sketch.

 

[Yaarel]

That's a bit of a misreading of drow. The drow were written as a blatant send up of feminism. The whole black/white thing was never racial at all.

It is racist when assuming "dark" refers to skin color. Plus then assuming black skin equals Evil, and a curse.

There is also misogyny where assuming female leaders are Evil. This too is part of the "black widow" Arachne spider motif. Likewise the Drow offspring killing each other off until only a few survivors emerge is also part of the spider motif.

 

[Hussar]

It is racist when assuming "dark" refers to skin color. Plus then assuming black skin equals Evil, and a curse.

There is also misogyny where assuming female leaders are Evil. This too is part of the "black widow" Arachne spider motif. Likewise the Drow offspring killing each other off until only a few survivors emerge is also part of the spider motif.

Meh. The whole "dark" thing is racist is a bit of a stretch to be honest. Drow are dark because they are inverse elves. Elves are good, so drow are evil. Elves are fair and blond, so, drow are literally black. Yeah, I'm not entirely unsympathetic to the view, but, by and large, no one has really made much of an issue about it. I mean, heck, you've got forty years of Drizz't novels, so, it's not like it hasn't been visible.

OTOH, the really, really blatant misogyny is hard to ignore for me. Hrm, the emasculating women enslave men while worshipping a beautiful, highly sexualized woman who turns into an actual black widow spider.

Subtle this is not.

 

[Emerikol]

This is how Gygax creates a culture: consider his invention of the Drow.

Gygax borrows the concept of Light Elf versus Dark Elf from reallife Norse folkbelief. He misunderstands it as if referring to American skin-color racism. The Norse terms refer to hair color, but apply to literal luminosity verses dwelling in darkness, and moreso to the mindful intentions. Then as a twist, he throws in Greek Arachnea. Then he calls this amalgam from reallife sources by the Scottish word "drow" (which actually derives from the Norse term trǫll).

Gygax creates all of the human cultures in the same way, a reallife reference with a twist. For example, the "North" "Barbarians" are plainly a Norse culture, especially Norwegian. In reallife, I have more than one relative named "Ingrid". It is almost entirely negative stereotypes made deeply worse by fusing it with the assumptions N*zi German racism and cultural appropriation and misrepresentation. N*zis are enemies. My family fought in the underground against the N*zis. Some family had to escape to Sweden. To Germanize and N*zify my heritage feels horrifying.

In any case, the point is, even when creating a fictional culture, sensitivity.

I don't agree with all of this thinking. It is a fantasy world. My cultures are fantasy.

I think having a Nordic viking style culture with Germanic nazi elements as a villain group would be pretty good. I'm not saying vikings are nazis or that nazis are vikings. Until this hypersensitivity over all this stuff blows over we are creatively going to be stymied. Maybe I deliberately don't want my culture to be exactly identical to the Vikings. Maybe twisting ideas around is the stuff of fantasy.

And if you think Gygax spent that much time thinking about his Drow, I'd be surprised. He probably just thought of a way to make them different from regular elves.

In one of my own worlds, the Drakkar, are a pale white skinned race with jet black hair and purple eyes. At no time was I thinking of any race when I created these people. I just wanted something different than my elves. My regular elves are more light to dark tanned though not completely black. I also wanted something the players wouldn't immediately recognize as Drow. So the Drakkar are born.

I just think that when we are worried about offending someone when brainstorming ideas for a campaign it is not good.

 

[Hussar]

Again we should differentiate what we do at our own tables and what is for sale to the general public.