D&D (2024) Greyhawk 2024: comparing Oerth and Earth

[Yaarel]

What happened? People are defaming Norwegians?

Yes, the 1980 and 1983 Greyhawk setting by Gygax presents the clearly Norwegian "vikings" of Thillonria as brutish stupid "barbarians" who exemplify the despicable Evil Suel empire. Plus a number of other related demonizations.

The 2024 Greyhawk walks back some of this. The Thillonrians are still plainly Norwegian, with a queen named Ingrid, a community of berserkar, viking longships, and so on. But they are now characteristically more intelligent, developing highly advanced knowledge about "nature", hinting at Primal magic, Elemental Arcane magic, and the physical sciences of the Nature skill − all transmitting and developing magical and scientific traditions from ancient Suel. Unfortunately, 2024 doubles down on the connection between Thillonria and Suel. But 2024 Suel is clearly more innocent.

2024 Greyhawk seems to have taken the sting out of the Anti-Norwegian characterizations, and seems mostly workable from a Norwegian perspective. But the D&D fans of Greyhawk since old school and 3e are still in the process of understanding and integrating this 2024 recharacterization. We will see if the hatespeech against Norwegian heritage ends or not.

 

[Hussar]

We will see if the hatespeech against Norwegian heritage ends or not.

I'm sorry, but, really? Hatespeech? You don't think that might be taking it just a bit too far?

 

[Yaarel]

I'm sorry, but, really? Hatespeech? You don't think that might be taking it just a bit too far?

Evil racist genociders? Yeah, the worst kind of hatespeech possible. Especially when it is false and actually derives from a group who attacked Norwegians.

 

[Parmandur]

What happened? People are defaming Norwegians?

He means Gary Gygax, well known hater of Nordic people and culture.

(Serioualy, you can lay a loooot of stuff at Gygax feet, he was no angel and had blindspots to spare....but hatred of Norwegians???)

 

[Parmandur]

Evil racist genociders? Yeah, the worst kind of hatespeech possible. Especially when it is false and actually derives from a group who attacked Norwegians.

The evil racist are a different nation, separated by over a thousand years from the Nordic expy (which is, again, more Conan than Norwegian in nature).

 

[Voadam]

Slight side tangent, why associate the three fantasy Greyhawk Scandinavian Viking groups solely with Norwegians and not the three big Scandinavian countries that had Vikings if you are matching Greyhawk to real world countries? Particularly if you think of the Flanaess as North America/the US and are mapping Flan to indigenous North Americans. There are about an equal number of Swedish Americans as Norwegian Americans for example.

It is not like the Suel sailed to Newfoundland as Vikings spread to the three Viking areas then expanded south losing Viking culture everywhere else.

 

[Voadam]

The evil racist are a different nation, separated by over a thousand years from the Nordic expy (which is, again, more Conan than Norwegian in nature).

Conan is an explicitly Celtic Cimmerian.

The Hyborian Aesir and Vanir were ancestors of Nordic Scandinavians in the Conan world.

 

[Parmandur]

Conan is an explicitly Celtic Cimmerian.

The Hyborian Aesir and Vanir were ancestors of Nordic Scandinavians in the Conan world.

Yes, but Gygax was (again) not doing 1-to-1 here. The three "North Kingdoms" are Vikings, but they are also rugged hard descendents of decadent fallen Atlantis...same as the Cimmerians.

 

[Yaarel]

Slight side tangent, why associate the three fantasy Greyhawk Scandinavian Viking groups solely with Norwegians and not the three big Scandinavian countries that had Vikings if you are matching Greyhawk to real world countries? Particularly if you think of the Flanaess as North America/the US and are mapping Flan to indigenous North Americans. There are about an equal number of Swedish Americans as Norwegian Americans for example.

It is not like the Suel sailed to Newfoundland as Vikings spread to the three Viking areas then expanded south losing Viking culture everywhere else.

The latitudes relate to where the Norse regions mainly went:
Norway → Atlantic Ocean
Sweden → Russia
Denmark → Britain

The Thillonrian Peninsula equates geographically with the Viking Settlements from Norway in Newfoundland.

Also, any Norse origin requires Sámi and Finn as well, which Thillonria lacks.

On Oerth, there is a Hyperborean region called "Jotnumheim", which is a suitable location for all the Nordic areas.

 

[Azzy]

The latitudes relate to where the Norse regions mainly went:
Norway → Atlantic Ocean
Sweden → Russia
Denmark → Britain

This has nothing to do with Greyhawk. The Greyhawk cultures have only the thinnest veneer of historical inspiration. Your attempt to map real world cultures to Greyhawk cultures is fraught with inferences that aren't there. Gygax never put as much thought into the setting.