Yes, the new way magic is dealt with was my biggest concern. This idea about a magic flux is a good idea though.
GREYHAWK 3E to 4E: Do I need a world-shaking event?
- Thread starter dead
- Start date
Yes, the new way magic is dealt with was my biggest concern. This idea about a magic flux is a good idea though.
Unfortunately there is a lot of teleporting. The party wizard is about 18th level. I can see him howling and whining if this power is curtailed!
Actually, I like the sound of this limited teleporting though. It seems too quick and easy at the moment and cuts out the epic journey towards your goal - making the adventure more rewarding in the end.
Last edited:
scruffygrognard
Adventurer
If I were to do a 4th edition Greyhawk game I'd wait for Ari Marmell's Advanced Player's Guide to be released so that I could have more classic race & class options available to my players.
Then I would explain that Tieflings and (especially) Dragonborn characters were rare and, possibly, not allow players to choose those races for their characters. As others have noted, tieflings are MUCH easier to integrate into a Greyhawk game due to the presence of alu demons and cambions.
Then I would explain that Tieflings and (especially) Dragonborn characters were rare and, possibly, not allow players to choose those races for their characters. As others have noted, tieflings are MUCH easier to integrate into a Greyhawk game due to the presence of alu demons and cambions.
Were you running the same campaign in 3E?
If so, did your players start up all new characters for 4E or did they convert their 3E characters across?
Actually, I had 2 ideas for a world-shaking event. They are quite drastic and, from the feedback I've received so far, unnecessary I think. But here they are:
1) A toned down copy of the FR adventure path that lead up to the Spellplague (except adapted to GH of course):
Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave
Shadowdale: The Scourging of the Land
Anauroch: The Empire of Shade
I haven't read these so I'm not sure how successful I'd be adapting them. Perhaps instead of Shar going up against Mystra, it could be Vecna verses Boccob?
A mini Spellplague would then ensue but it would last only a few months (no 100 year time jump) and makes no major changes except to alter the flux of magic. Perhaps Boccob doesn't die but is just wounded in someway and must recover.
2) An epic adventure path following the Gord the Rogue series of books:
Artifact of Evil
Sea of Death
City of Hawks
Come Endless Darkness
Dance of Demons
Instead of Gord, though, the PCs would take centre stage. The end of this epic adventure could be joyous with the defeat or banishment of Tharizdun, or grim with Tharizdun triumphant.
If Tharizdun is triumphant, then the rest of the gods sacrifice themselves (or a great deal of their power) to imprision the Dark God on Oerth (so he cannot conquer the rest of the multiverse). This could make for an interesting setting like the Midnight campaign where evil has won.
These were the ideas I was tossing around anyway
Last edited:
No world-shaking event is necessary. The setting is more than flexible and robust enough to deal with the changes. Note that some of the changes that would come up in a Greyhawk-shaking-event, such as changing all of the Druids to Clerics (suggested above) are just going to have to be undone when Druids are re-introduced to the game in a few months anyway, just as the Time of Troubles went through all the trouble of bumping off Assassins since they didn't think there were going to be any in 3rd edition, only to have them appear as a Prestige Class in the DMG, meaning that they could remain as important to the setting as Red Wizards...
Silly people. Making such radical changes, only to have to put stuff back in months later! Oh, Bane's dead. Oh no, he's alive again! Save yourself that nonsense and just have the Druids and Barbarians and whatever stay 'off-screen' until 4E has presented them in the next PHB.
Wow, I said that except thing a while back. I think it's the first time anyone at WotC has agreed with me that it would have been more palatable to introduce the new rules *without* a world-shaking event, but building intelligently off of lore already present in an established setting.
Iuz has demons in his army and the Great Kingdom has devils running around, so both make likely sources of Tieflings, and both have societies that might even place Tieflings above humans, socially.
Silly people. Making such radical changes, only to have to put stuff back in months later! Oh, Bane's dead. Oh no, he's alive again! Save yourself that nonsense and just have the Druids and Barbarians and whatever stay 'off-screen' until 4E has presented them in the next PHB.
Wow, I said that except thing a while back. I think it's the first time anyone at WotC has agreed with me that it would have been more palatable to introduce the new rules *without* a world-shaking event, but building intelligently off of lore already present in an established setting.
Iuz has demons in his army and the Great Kingdom has devils running around, so both make likely sources of Tieflings, and both have societies that might even place Tieflings above humans, socially.
CruelSummerLord
First Post
Well, it all depends on the needs of your campaign. Are your players going to want some justification as to why the rules have changed, or will they cheerfully accept your handwaving it and simply saying that "this is the way things work now. That's all that matters."
More limited magic such as teleportation can be explained by alterations in the magical ether that make teleportation more limited in scope, but not impossible. Wizards and sorcerers who study the phenomenon have all come up with varying explanations, but all agree that teleporting just isn't what it used to be anymore.
As for tieflings, eladrin or dragonborn, I'd advise you to consult with your players. Do any of them even want these races present, either to play as PCs or as NPCs to interact with? If your players aren't interested in either one, or otherwise don't think they'd add any value to the setting (I wouldn't, but that's just me), you don't even need to add them at all. Were I in your place, I wouldn't use them at all unless a player expressed interest, and in such a case I'd work out a way to work them into the campaign in a way that fits your setting-tieflings come from places like Iuz or the Great Kingdom, while dragonborn might come from south of the Flanaess, or might be human-like in nature.
From what you're saying, it seems like you want to keep major continuity with your previous campaign. In that case, I'd advise against an earth-shaking event if you and/or your players don't want it. If your players are happy with it, I'd say a simple bit of DM fiat is all that's needed. Just say that the 4E rules now apply, make the necessary conversions, and you and your players can return to your regularly scheduled campaign.
Also, if you want to keep certain elements, like gnomes and bards, that were removed from the 4E Core, there's probably plenty of amateur supplements that have already popped up converting gnomes and half-orcs as player races for 4E, or reviving defunct classes.
More limited magic such as teleportation can be explained by alterations in the magical ether that make teleportation more limited in scope, but not impossible. Wizards and sorcerers who study the phenomenon have all come up with varying explanations, but all agree that teleporting just isn't what it used to be anymore.
As for tieflings, eladrin or dragonborn, I'd advise you to consult with your players. Do any of them even want these races present, either to play as PCs or as NPCs to interact with? If your players aren't interested in either one, or otherwise don't think they'd add any value to the setting (I wouldn't, but that's just me), you don't even need to add them at all. Were I in your place, I wouldn't use them at all unless a player expressed interest, and in such a case I'd work out a way to work them into the campaign in a way that fits your setting-tieflings come from places like Iuz or the Great Kingdom, while dragonborn might come from south of the Flanaess, or might be human-like in nature.
From what you're saying, it seems like you want to keep major continuity with your previous campaign. In that case, I'd advise against an earth-shaking event if you and/or your players don't want it. If your players are happy with it, I'd say a simple bit of DM fiat is all that's needed. Just say that the 4E rules now apply, make the necessary conversions, and you and your players can return to your regularly scheduled campaign.
Also, if you want to keep certain elements, like gnomes and bards, that were removed from the 4E Core, there's probably plenty of amateur supplements that have already popped up converting gnomes and half-orcs as player races for 4E, or reviving defunct classes.
Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
Well, if you really consider converting mid-stream - keep in mind that 3E tended to assume level 1-20, and 4E assumes 1-30. So you might want to increase the PCs level by a factor of 1.5 to 27? Teleport is a little easier at that level (it costs money and is not as fast or freely useable as the Teleport he might know and love, but it's not entirely gone or anything.). Though in the end, I don't really recommend starting at high level in 4E - it's easier then in 3E, but you still need some time to familiarize with the new system.
The thing I forgot: The cosmology changes - do you want the Shadowfell, Feywild, Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos replacing the Great Wheel? (I don't think you absolutely have to do so, but it might be interesting). Whether this is a problem or not depends on how much you used it so far.
WotC is also publishing Eberron as a 4e setting and it apparently isn't really being changed much at all. The FR shakeup "explains" the rules transition, but I think its primary purpose was to deal with perceived problems ingrained into the setting (the legions of uber-NPCs, etc.).
I'm not so much worried about 4E things such as the new cosmology, teiflings, dragonborn, etc as these you can probably take or leave as you like (unless or course the cosmology assumption permeates all the rules on spells).
I'll keep my Great Wheel. Teiflings are OK but they're already OK (the 3E version anyway). As for dragonborn, if someone reeeeally wants to play one I won't stop them but they'll be rare and either come from off-world or another continent.
