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D&D (2024) Greyhawk Confirmed. Tell Me Why.

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
.

You're overthinking this. As I said above, it's a setting, not a rule set. It will use whatever rule set you attach to it, which could even be some other game entirely.


There is a difference between
  1. presenting a setting
  2. teaching a setting as an example of worldbuilding
  3. teaching the steps of worldbuilding
WOTC typically does 1. In rare cases 2. Never 3.

As a mentor to a few novice homebreing DM and a person who's watched and read on world building, many new DM (ESPECIALLY the younger Gen Z DMs) need 3.

They do ALL the crap they criticize other forms of media for. Mostly because they tend to design plots and quests WHILE worldbuilding and end up with nonsensical worlds you can't adventure on the fly in.
 

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Warpiglet-7

Cry havoc! And let slip the pigs of war!
To be honest, I think that the primary issue (and I will eventually get to a longer post about this) with people trying to enforce some kind of "Greyhawk purity code" is that it goes against the entire ethos of what Greyhawk was.

Famously, Gygax did not include many elements from his home campaign into the setting (folio and boxed set) because he didn't want everyone just playing his campaign. The reason it is sparse is because Greyhawk was supposed to be a setting that every table made their own.

If you go back and look at the material, you'll see tons of hooks in there- but importantly, these hooks were meant for individual tables to decide what, if anything, they would do with them. There was very little in the way of established lore and canon. Even the lore and canon that was there (such as the invoked devastation and rain of colorless fire) was more of a tantalizing hint for tables to use - not some edict to follow.
Ironically, we initially liked the gray forgotten realms box because it was “wide open.” That changed.

We are playing 5e right now and battled the minions of Iuz in some portion of Greyhawk.

I have no idea if what we did was consistent with canon that was developed later or not. I just know it was a cool villain and we defended a friendly city!

The bits and theme are what I like about Greyhawk. In my other pals campaign I have a cleric of Wee Jas. Creepy but not evil…good stuff.

I like things about the Realms in places. Thay interests me for example, but I hate the push of lore…it seems more a slave to it than Greyhawk ever was but of course you can always keep and eject what I want. Just seems less common
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
There is a difference between
  1. presenting a setting
  2. teaching a setting as an example of worldbuilding
  3. teaching the steps of worldbuilding
WOTC typically does 1. In rare cases 2. Never 3.

As a mentor to a few novice homebreing DM and a person who's watched and read on world building, many new DM (ESPECIALLY the younger Gen Z DMs) need 3.

They do ALL the crap they criticize other forms of media for. Mostly because they tend to design plots and quests WHILE worldbuilding and end up with nonsensical worlds you can't adventure on the fly in.

Again, maybe we can avoid criticizing the implementation of it until we have actually seen the implementation?

It's a little early to either praise or criticize something we haven't seen yet. Especially with absolutist language, I would think?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Ironically, we initially liked the gray forgotten realms box because it was “wide open.” That changed.
No, it really didn't change. For all the detail 3e brought to the setting, if you really looked at it, you saw that next to nothing was really detailed. You still had 90%-95% not detailed and wide open for the DM to make stuff up. Yes, Greyhawk had less than 1% detailed, but that doesn't mean that the Realms wasn't/isn't still very much wide open.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Again, maybe we can avoid criticizing the implementation of it until we have actually seen the implementation?

It's a little early to either praise or criticize something we haven't seen yet. Especially with absolutist language, I would think?
I'm just stating their past.

WOTC has a history of presenting setting a certain way and not providing narrative or simulation guidance.

They might change in the DMG 2024. But all signs point to "No".

Their words are "giving an example" Which is their typical nonteaching style of "Here's an example. You're the DM. You figure it out".
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
No, it really didn't change. For all the detail 3e brought to the setting, if you really looked at it, you saw that next to nothing was really detailed. You still had 90%-95% not detailed and wide open for the DM to make stuff up. Yes, Greyhawk had less than 1% detailed, but that doesn't mean that the Realms wasn't/isn't still very much wide open.

I think that the reason some people love FR, while others do not, is because FR has so much lore.

If you're into it, there are various campaign settings. There are books. There are computer games. There are Greenwood articles and musings and more. There are wikis.

And, of course, there are timelines from the various spellsunderingplagues that have occurred to keep it current with the edition changes.

The amount of lore is so great that, for example, the wiki has to rate the canonicity of the various sources. Moreover, while GH has some notable people-


Most of them were barely sketched out, and just known by name in the GH material. Whereas FR is well-known for its numerous characters (many of which are developed in books as well).

I think that this is a difference, and one of the reasons some people (that love to dive into lore and canon) truly love FR, while others find it to be more restrictive.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I think that the reason some people love FR, while others do not, is because FR has so much lore.

If you're into it, there are various campaign settings. There are books. There are computer games. There are Greenwood articles and musings and more. There are wikis.

And, of course, there are timelines from the various spellsunderingplagues that have occurred to keep it current with the edition changes.

The amount of lore is so great that, for example, the wiki has to rate the canonicity of the various sources. Moreover, while GH has some notable people-


Most of them were barely sketched out, and just known by name in the GH material. Whereas FR is well-known for its numerous characters (many of which are developed in books as well).

I think that this is a difference, and one of the reasons some people (that love to dive into lore and canon) truly love FR, while others find it to be more restrictive.
For sure. My point wasn't that the Realms didn't give a ton of lore. My point was that despite that lore, it was still a very small percentage of what exists in the Realms. I could if I wanted create an entire campaign and only have that massive amount of lore come into things tangentially, using about as much of it as say Greyhawk has.

I understand the differences between the two. I'm just disagreeing with the idea that FR isn't wide open as a setting, but Greyhawk is. Both are wide open. One just has much more lore to draw upon if desired.
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
So, since you literally just did the thing you think the chapter should do, why are you insisting that WotC cannot or will not do that? Why are Goliaths a problem, but dwarves aren't, if you can treat them literally the exact same way in the chapter?
Well, dwarfs have been in GH since it started, but goliaths are new. Dwarfs have several established kingdoms in GH, but goliaths don't. Dwarfs have had large amounts of text dedicated to explaining their culture, both in and out of GH-specific material, but goliaths haven't.

So there's three reasons why goliaths would be a problem.

Now, I will disagree with you, that teach someone how to worldbuild, they should make a paragraph
Good thing I said "sentence or two" and not "paragraph, right?

I will state that even a novice worldbuilder should be able to manage one sentence on each of their PC species. Assuming that the worldbuilder is going for the D&D standard of each species being a distinct people with their own language and distinct culture, that is.

It wouldn't even be difficult. The DMG could present a few questions to be answered, such as "how do they feel about outsiders/people of different species?" with a few examples given such as "welcoming,""friendly but cautious," "wary and distrustful, but willing to keep the peace until provoked," "usually hostile at the get-go," or "demands they prove themselves through trials." There could even be a table to roll on or choose from, or to use as examples should the DM want to make up their own answers.

That is still telling. "Show don't tell" is a writing phrase, telling authors not to info dump. You don't say "The woman was upset because her husband was dead" you show her being upset. Writing "The Orc Empire of Pomarj is good, and they have strong trade relations with the shield lands where their orcish paladins quest for the good of the common people" is still telling. You are telling me about the empire, the paladins, ect. SHOWING me that would be having character meet those orc paladins.
You are once again confusing worldbuilding with actual play. And funnily enough, you're actually making my point, except that because of that confusion you think you're not.

The writing in the world book or chapter or whatever--the book that WotC will be producing--will be showing how the Orc Empire is not evil (again, "not chaotic evil" does not have to mean "always good"; the orcs can be neutral). The DM will then, hopefully, show this in their own campaign by having the PCs interact with not CE orcs and orc societies.

Worldbuilding isn't telling because it's a different form of media from the actual play. It's a literary media, and more specifically, it's (usually) a wikipedia-esque listing of facts. If the entry on the Pomarj claims that it's not an evil empire, but there's nothing to support that in the text, then it gets a big fat <citation needed>.

Because making a new setting from scratch will also confuse and anger people. How dare they make a new setting instead of using their old settings! Why are they trying to force us grognards out of the game? People are declaring these things over the changes to how dragons look, making a whole new setting will still set those same people off.
Were a lot of people upset when Nentir Vale was introduced? I admit that I wasn't paying attention to anything D&D during the 4e years, but the reactions I've seen to it have been between "high praise" and "it's OK," with most being towards the "praise" end of the scale.

Would a lot of people be upset if this world was created for the sole purpose of being used as an example of how to build a world and wasn't actually turned into a real setting? I don't think anyone here is saying that this hypothetical world must be used as a new setting--just that it would be a good idea.
 

Warpiglet-7

Cry havoc! And let slip the pigs of war!
For sure. My point wasn't that the Realms didn't give a ton of lore. My point was that despite that lore, it was still a very small percentage of what exists in the Realms. I could if I wanted create an entire campaign and only have that massive amount of lore come into things tangentially, using about as much of it as say Greyhawk has.

I understand the differences between the two. I'm just disagreeing with the idea that FR isn't wide open as a setting, but Greyhawk is. Both are wide open. One just has much more lore to draw upon if desired.
With a continent, you are right. With all that is written about the realms, there is much much more not described.

In her said, it feels a little too connected for my taste whether by organizations or stories
That already connect so much.

For some things including rules etc. I really respond to the “feel” as my guide. Clearly the Harpers and heroes don’t always show up but…just an impression.

All good. Not absolute answers on my end…
 

Remathilis

Legend
I'm just stating their past.

WOTC has a history of presenting setting a certain way and not providing narrative or simulation guidance.

They might change in the DMG 2024. But all signs point to "No".

Their words are "giving an example" Which is their typical nonteaching style of "Here's an example. You're the DM. You figure it out".

How far back are you looking?

WotC has had control of D&D since 1997. For sake of argument, let's look at the setting books WotC has released:

3e:
Living Greyhawk Gazetteer
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
Eberron Campaign Setting
Dragonlance Campaign Setting

4e:
Forgotten Realms Guides
Eberron Guides
Dark Sun Guides

5e:
Sword Coast Adventurers Guide
Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica
Eberron: Rising from the Last War
Mythic Ossesys of Theros
Explorers Guide to Wildmount*
Van Richten Guide to Ravenloft

5e adventures with setting info:
Ghosts of Saltmarsh
Strixhaven: Curriculum of Chaos
Journey to the Radiant Citadel
Spelljammer: Adventures in Space
Dragonlance: Shadow of the Dragon Queen
Planescape: Adventures in the Multiverse

Now, which of these products do not provide narrative or simulation guidance?


* Effectively, this is an officially licenced 3pp product rather than a WotC product.
 

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