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D&D (2024) Greyhawk Confirmed. Tell Me Why.

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
I understand the differences between the two. I'm just disagreeing with the idea that FR isn't wide open as a setting, but Greyhawk is. Both are wide open. One just has much more lore to draw upon if desired.

I agree in the sense that there are areas of FR that you can certainly put a campaign in that are relatively blank.

But I would add that GH, unlike FR, does not have any thing in canon past the Flanaess. Which means that other than one part of one continent the rest of Oerth is open for the table to fill in.

(I acknowledge that there is one map, kinda, in a Dragon Magazine, and one French periodical, but those are just as 'canon' as anything a table does.)
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
With a continent, you are right. With all that is written about the realms, there is much much more not described.

In her said, it feels a little too connected for my taste whether by organizations or stories
That already connect so much.

For some things including rules etc. I really respond to the “feel” as my guide. Clearly the Harpers and heroes don’t always show up but…just an impression.

All good. Not absolute answers on my end…
Yep. It's all about perspective and feel. What I like about the Realms is that if I want to make a campaign where the enemy is an evil organization, I can...

1) Create a new one whole cloth and place it pretty much anywhere.

2) Take Zhentil keep, but ignore most of the lore there and create new leaders for it. Not that I'm removing the old one, but in an organization that large there have to be more leaders than the lore gives. Then I can create the plaid assassins, who believe that only by the target seeing you coming can you truly earn glory and fame in the assassination of the target. And create other aspects of the Zhentarim that haven't been spelled out, using about as much prior Zhentarim lore as Greyhawk gives for some of its places.

3) Use the Zhentarim lore, leadership, etc. as is and lean on the preset lore heavily.

It's the addition of the option for #3 which sells the Realms to me over Greyhawk, not that I don't also love Greyhawk.
 
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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
How far back are you looking?

WotC has had control of D&D since 1997. For sake of argument, let's look at the setting books WotC has released:

3e:
Living Greyhawk Gazetteer
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
Eberron Campaign Setting
Dragonlance Campaign Setting

4e:
Forgotten Realms Guides
Eberron Guides
Dark Sun Guides

5e:
Sword Coast Adventurers Guide
Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica
Eberron: Rising from the Last War
Mythic Ossesys of Theros
Explorers Guide to Wildmount*
Van Richten Guide to Ravenloft

5e adventures with setting info:
Ghosts of Saltmarsh
Strixhaven: Curriculum of Chaos
Journey to the Radiant Citadel
Spelljammer: Adventures in Space
Dragonlance: Shadow of the Dragon Queen
Planescape: Adventures in the Multiverse

Now, which of these products do not provide narrative or simulation guidance?


* Effectively, this is an officially licenced 3pp product rather than a WotC product.
From my experience

None of them provide worldbuilding narrative or simulation guidance.

Which makes sense. WOTC is trying to sell you their world's for money not teaching you how to make your own.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Well, dwarfs have been in GH since it started, but goliaths are new. Dwarfs have several established kingdoms in GH, but goliaths don't. Dwarfs have had large amounts of text dedicated to explaining their culture, both in and out of GH-specific material, but goliaths haven't.

So there's three reasons why goliaths would be a problem.


Good thing I said "sentence or two" and not "paragraph, right?

I will state that even a novice worldbuilder should be able to manage one sentence on each of their PC species. Assuming that the worldbuilder is going for the D&D standard of each species being a distinct people with their own language and distinct culture, that is.

It wouldn't even be difficult. The DMG could present a few questions to be answered, such as "how do they feel about outsiders/people of different species?" with a few examples given such as "welcoming,""friendly but cautious," "wary and distrustful, but willing to keep the peace until provoked," "usually hostile at the get-go," or "demands they prove themselves through trials." There could even be a table to roll on or choose from, or to use as examples should the DM want to make up their own answers.


You are once again confusing worldbuilding with actual play. And funnily enough, you're actually making my point, except that because of that confusion you think you're not.

The writing in the world book or chapter or whatever--the book that WotC will be producing--will be showing how the Orc Empire is not evil (again, "not chaotic evil" does not have to mean "always good"; the orcs can be neutral). The DM will then, hopefully, show this in their own campaign by having the PCs interact with not CE orcs and orc societies.

Worldbuilding isn't telling because it's a different form of media from the actual play. It's a literary media, and more specifically, it's (usually) a wikipedia-esque listing of facts. If the entry on the Pomarj claims that it's not an evil empire, but there's nothing to support that in the text, then it gets a big fat <citation needed>.


Were a lot of people upset when Nentir Vale was introduced? I admit that I wasn't paying attention to anything D&D during the 4e years, but the reactions I've seen to it have been between "high praise" and "it's OK," with most being towards the "praise" end of the scale.

Would a lot of people be upset if this world was created for the sole purpose of being used as an example of how to build a world and wasn't actually turned into a real setting? I don't think anyone here is saying that this hypothetical world must be used as a new setting--just that it would be a good idea.
This is true. I don't like 4e at all from a design or mechanics point of view, but Nentir Vale is a cool setting I'd be happy to play in with some other system.
 

Warpiglet-7

Cry havoc! And let slip the pigs of war!
Yep. It's all about perspective and feel. What I like about the Realms is that if I want to make a campaign where the enemy is an evil organization, I can...

1) Create a new one whole cloth and place it pretty much anywhere.

2) Take Zhentil keep, but ignore most of the lore there and create new leaders for it. Not that I'm removing the old one, but in an organization that large there have to be more leaders than the lore gives. Then I can create the plaid assassins, who believe that only be the target seeing you coming can you truly earn glory and fame in the assassination of the target. And create other aspects of the Zhentarim that haven't been spelled out, using about as much prior Zhentarim lore as Greyhawk gives for some of its places.

3) Use the Zhentarim lore, leadership, etc. as is and lean on the preset lore heavily.

It's the addition of the option for #3 which sells the Realms to me over Greyhawk, not that I don't also love Greyhawk.
I am playing my cleric of wee jas in a very loose realms. It can be done.

Clearly my group runs one loose realms and a loose Greyhawk. I just enjoy the Greyhawk deities cons characters more. My friend enjoys realms more 🤷‍♂️
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
How far back are you looking?

WotC has had control of D&D since 1997. For sake of argument, let's look at the setting books WotC has released:

3e:
Living Greyhawk Gazetteer
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
Eberron Campaign Setting
Dragonlance Campaign Setting

4e:
Forgotten Realms Guides
Eberron Guides
Dark Sun Guides

5e:
Sword Coast Adventurers Guide
Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica
Eberron: Rising from the Last War
Mythic Ossesys of Theros
Explorers Guide to Wildmount*
Van Richten Guide to Ravenloft

5e adventures with setting info:
Ghosts of Saltmarsh
Strixhaven: Curriculum of Chaos
Journey to the Radiant Citadel
Spelljammer: Adventures in Space
Dragonlance: Shadow of the Dragon Queen
Planescape: Adventures in the Multiverse

Now, which of these products do not provide narrative or simulation guidance?


* Effectively, this is an officially licenced 3pp product rather than a WotC product.
I have no objections to any of the 3e setting books; they were all excellent and provided exactly the level of detail I expect out of a setting product. Their work since that time has been uneven at best, with some quite anemic IMO (Sword Coast and Spelljammer, for example), and other offerings quite decent for one reason or another (Wildemount and Planescape).
 


Remathilis

Legend
From my experience

None of them provide worldbuilding narrative or simulation guidance.

Which makes sense. WOTC is trying to sell you their world's for money not teaching you how to make your own.
There are DMs who don't want to engage in world building, they just want to play. They are busy people who don't write up lore, they buy a book with a map and some modules and that's it. I get that it doesn't meet your exacting standard of a craft-brewed world, but some of us don't mind the domestic swill..
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
There are DMs who don't want to engage in world building, they just want to play. They are busy people who don't write up lore, they buy a book with a map and some modules and that's it. I get that it doesn't meet your exacting standard of a craft-brewed world, but some of us don't mind the domestic swill..

That was the original Gygaxian approach.

He didn't think anyone would buy published modules or campaign settings, since everyone would make up their own.

It was only after he saw the success of Judge's Guild that he realized that a lot of people just want to buy someone else's stuff and run that.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
There are DMs who don't want to engage in world building, they just want to play. They are busy people who don't write up lore, they buy a book with a map and some modules and that's it. I get that it doesn't meet your exacting standard of a craft-brewed world, but some of us don't mind the domestic swill..
Sure

But you should be teaching people who do want to engage in world building.

Giving people a plain cake and their choice of icing or frosting is not the same as teaching people to bake a cake.

If WOTC just ends up presenting a chapter of example Greyhawk, they haven't taught worldbuilding.
 

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