D&D (2024) Greyhawk Confirmed. Tell Me Why.

[Parmandur]

Did it do a better job of teaching world building than it did of teaching DMs to comfortably run a short adventure? ;-)

Probably,kind of par too the problem qith the book.

 

[Minigiant]

As far as I can tell there is nowhere in the DMG that it tells DMs to run FR - at least in my skimming through Chapter 1. Do you have a favorite spot in the book that actually says or implies that? To me it looks like it gives lots of options and doesn't settle on any of the, with most of the time in some sections going explicitly against the FR grain.

Do you have any particular quotes to back that up?

View attachment 364965

It starts with the core assumptions, but then...

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The next page is on pantheons and it talks about Hieroneous in the Greyhawk setting, mentions Forgotten Realms for a sentence, and has a big example from the Dawn War Pantheon. And then jumps into other religious systems for a two pages, and then does humanoids, mentioning Moradin and FR in one paragraph.

The next section is on geography and mentions Great Britain and California to start. When describing cities it gives:

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As usual for this chapter it tells folks to consider what the different pieces mean.

It then has a section on weather, government, currency, languages, and factions that seem 1e DMG reminiscent.

It then ships to magic and brings up Waterdeep and Dark Sun.

And then it shifts to Creating a Campaign, which seems to tie it all together.

In the styles of play it mentions Heroic Fantasy is the baseline and that most FR novels fit in that. It doesn't say anything else about it having to be FR though. S&S mentions Dark Sun. Epic Fantasy mentions Dragon Lance, Mythic Fantasy mentions greek myths, Dark Fantasy mentions Ravenloft, Intrigue mentions the FR novels Brimstone Angels, Mystery mentions both FR and DL examples, Shawshbuckling mentions FR's City of Ravens, War mentions DL, Wuxia doesn't bring up FR, and Crossing- the Streams mentions all kinds of things from Greyhawk before getting to Elminster.

The actual advice seems in the second half of the chapter (again, I don't think anyone is defending the 2014 DMG's organization)!

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That's planning a campaign. Not worldbuilding.

And none of the info they give to connect campaigns and adventures to the world you build.

No "this is how you connect your pantheon to your adventures".

No "Here is how you integrate a faction or government into your campaign".

Just "here is how to roll up a city"
Not how to use the city. Not important aspects you should always include in a city or town.

 

[Cadence]

I'm assuming this means you don't have a reference where they say just go use FR?

That's planning a campaign. Not worldbuilding.

Right, the first half of the chapter is on world building, the second on the campaign.

They do note: "The world you create is the stage for your campaign." and so it feels like there will inevitably be sloshing back and forth between the two.

And none of the info they give to connect campaigns and adventures to the world you build.

They explicitly mention top down creation vs bottom up on page 14. On page 23 (creating a campaign) they talk about creating the local region and reference back to the earlier mapping section.

No "this is how you connect your pantheon to your adventures".

No "Here is how you integrate a faction or government into your campaign".

It feels like those tie into the section on world shaking events (pages 27-32), and religious observances (32-33) are in the section on passing time.

Just "here is how to roll up a city"
Not how to use the city. Not important aspects you should always include in a city or town.

I didn't see anything on "rolling up a city" in particular. Exactly what are you thinking of as "important aspects" for a town?

How many blacksmiths? What the sewer system is like? Sources of freshwater? Specifics of the defensive forces? How much of that is actually needed to jump in and run with things?

In any case, I am having trouble imagining fitting everything you want in world building (here's every important aspect of a city, and here is specific details on how each type of religious set up should mesh into play) into a reasonable sized book that also introduced how to run a game session, run an adventure, list all the magic items, and have all the other behind the scenes stuff.

I certainly agree the current book doesn't do a great job, I just think your dismissal of it is kind of hyperbolic. And, as I noted in a previous post, I would love them to have a DMG and also have a Campaign Builders Guide, to get at what you mention!

 

[Minigiant]

How many blacksmiths? What the sewer system is like? Sources of freshwater? Specifics of the defensive forces? How much of that is actually needed to jump in and run with things?

In any case, I am having trouble imagining fitting everything you want in world building (here's every important aspect of a city, and here is specific details on how each type of religious set up should mesh into play) into a reasonable sized book that also introduced how to run a game session, run an adventure, list all the magic items, and have all the other behind the scenes stuff.

I certainly agree the current book doesn't do a great job, I just think your dismissal of it is kind of hyperbolic. And, as I noted in a previous post, I would love them to have a DMG and also have a Campaign Builders Guide, to get at what you mention!

I was thinking more

1. Tone and Genre
   1. Tone
   2. Genre
   3. How Greyhawk does it
2. Choosing Races of your World
   1. Common Races
   2. Rare Races
   3. How Greyhawk does it
3. Choosing Classes of your Worl
   1. Classes
   2. Subclasses
   3. How Greyhawk does it
4. Your World and Magic
   1. Magic Spells
   2. Magic Items
   3. How Greyhawk does it
5. Your World's Governments
6. Factions
   1. Sample Factions
   2. Factions of Greyhawk
7. Major NPCs
   1. Example NPCs
   2. Major Figures of Greyhawk
8. Your PC and their place

 

[Chaosmancer]

Where did you pull that one from? I never said anything like that.

Yes you did

Let's pretend that this hypothetical chapter in the DMG on how to build your own campaign setting uses Greyhawk as an example (remember: we're not talking about a Greyhawk sourcebook here). What it should do is take each of the PC races and show how they are integrated into the campaign--even if this only requires no more than a simple "elves typically live in the forest, so they'll go here and goliaths typically live in the mountains so they'll go there."

(I have no idea how 5.5 is doing elf subraces, if they're doing them at all. But Greyhawk had grey, grugrach, valley, snow, and aquatic elves in addition to the standard high, wood, and drow elves, which can be a problem for some if this isn't addressed.)

What this hypothetical chapter should also do is talk about how these elves and goliaths live. What sort of society do they have? What sort of government? Do they get along with outsiders? Remember, this isn't a setting book; this is a chapter designed to teach DMs to how to make their own worlds, and therefore, these things are important. Even if these things can be reduced to a sentence or two, they're important: if you say "goliath communities nearly always have a ruler with absolute authority, tend to be wary of outsiders, are prone to xenophobia, and grow their food" it paints a much different picture than if you say "goliath communities nearly always are ruled by a council of the wise, tend to be wary of outsiders but welcoming of outsiders who earn their trust, and who hunt and gather their food."

Every example you gave was "elf" and "Goliath", "elves live here, goliaths live there" "elves act this way, goliaths act that way"

So since you need to do it for elves and goliaths in the same way... what's the difference?

If the question is "how do they get their food" (which is a big if of a question), the answer could be "farming" or "hunting/gathering," which are one to two words, not sentences.

If you recall, I gave this as an example: "goliath communities nearly always have a ruler with absolute authority, tend to be wary of outsiders, are prone to xenophobia, and grow their food." This is one sentence that answers three or four questions. This example could, perhaps, benefit from a second sentence that says, "most of their communities can be found in [this area of the world] or [climate/terrain], but certainly doesn't have to.

Sure, you can answer a question with a few words if you really want, but that seems to cause an issue, doesn't it? Because they picked Greyhawk, according to you, then they will have far too much to explain and showcase. But also, according to you, the level of information they really need is only two sentences per race to cover everything?

Do you think after writing the handful of paragraphs describing Goliaths in the PHB, that the designers would be incapable of writing these sentences you are demanding? And would anyone be happy if the entirety of all elves across all of greyhawk was reduced to a mere sentence? I mean, you are the one demanding these things are problems, but then your solutions are so bare-bones and simple... are they even issues?

It's also a convenient word. It's why the subreddit is called r/worldbuilding and not r/showofftheworldyoumadetoothers, even though that would be a far more accurate title based on what most of the posts there are like.

Because the point of the chapter is to teach people how to make a world. Therefore, neither the time nor resources have been wasted.

Interesting. They are going to teach people to show off the world they have made to others? Or, is making the world the actual action of world-building? Kind of hard to tell with your facepalm which one you think is world-building and which isn't.

I'd estimate that three-quarters or more of your arguments are either strawmen, trivial objections, and stuff you make-up whole-cloth.

Please show me where I said anything like this chapter is going to be "horrible and without purpose, solely because they picked Greyhawk." Anything at all like that. Go on, show me.

If you're going to reply to me, reply to what I actually wrote. Stop making stuff up and stop lying about what I said.

I'm sure you did not say those exact words. But you have repeatedly framed the choice of greyhawk as a mistake, a grave one, one that could have been avoided if they just did things the way you would have done them. You have never ackowledged a single good point about their choice, instead declaring that WoTC is now going to have to spend far too much time explaining things about the setting... like the single sentence you would demand to explain Goliaths, which I guess wouldn't be needed in a new setting that has never been made before?

Sure, I can be a little hyperbolic, but you keep cycling to these same "big issues" then when we say they are easily taken care of and there is no reason to suspect they are really major issues, you double down, and then you offer a trivial solution that is laughably easy to implement.

And, I will reiterate my position. They had good reasons to pick Greyhawk. We have no reason to assume this chapter will fail at its intended goal. That is it. That is my entire position which you keep stringently arguing against.

 

[Chaosmancer]

One point to consider of how little we know ow about thw shape of the elephant here...the DMG won't have a single sample Asventure, but apparently multiple examples of some sort. James Wyatt chromed at the PAX East presentation that rhe DMG has a "lot of Adventures in it" so we might be looking at a rather curious organization inaction when all is said and told.

Ah, I hadn't heard of that. Maybe a few adventures across the multiverse for different level groups?

 

[Parmandur]

Ah, I hadn't heard of that. Maybe a few adventures across the multiverse for different level groups?

Radically unclear at this point: maybe something like the Explorer's Guide to Wildemount, with a handful of sample low Level Adventures? Maybe a sample short campaign?

 

[Cadence]

I was thinking more

1. Tone and Genre
   1. Tone
   2. Genre
   3. How Greyhawk does it
2. Choosing Races of your World
   1. Common Races
   2. Rare Races
   3. How Greyhawk does it
3. Choosing Classes of your Worl
   1. Classes
   2. Subclasses
   3. How Greyhawk does it
4. Your World and Magic
   1. Magic Spells
   2. Magic Items
   3. How Greyhawk does it
5. Your World's Governments
6. Factions
   1. Sample Factions
   2. Factions of Greyhawk
7. Major NPCs
   1. Example NPCs
   2. Major Figures of Greyhawk
8. Your PC and their place

I think there is so little hope of 2 (and likely 3) showing up as full things like that, that it isn't even worth thinking about. I would, however, like it mentioned somewhere that different worlds can very well have different spells/classes/magic items/species, etc... I would also like it mentioned that part of a GMs job is bouncing there campaign ideas off of their prospective players, and (unless one is doing it for fun, which is super!) not putting a hundred hours into it before doing so. [I would do it for fun anyway!]

 

[Chaosmancer]

I was thinking more

1. Tone and Genre
   1. Tone
   2. Genre
   3. How Greyhawk does it
2. Choosing Races of your World
   1. Common Races
   2. Rare Races
   3. How Greyhawk does it
3. Choosing Classes of your Worl
   1. Classes
   2. Subclasses
   3. How Greyhawk does it
4. Your World and Magic
   1. Magic Spells
   2. Magic Items
   3. How Greyhawk does it
5. Your World's Governments
6. Factions
   1. Sample Factions
   2. Factions of Greyhawk
7. Major NPCs
   1. Example NPCs
   2. Major Figures of Greyhawk
8. Your PC and their place

Why would the DMG divide species into "common" and "rare", when that is a function of the setting? The idea of the DMG listing dwarves and explaining dwarves, when the PHB already did so is nonsense to me. Sure, you can discuss the idea of altering how the species are presented in your setting, but you have already discussed the generics of them in the only book you can guarantee every owner of a DMG already has access to.

What does classes of the world even mean? I guess you could talk about a Dark Sun-esque idea where you have removed all clerics and paladins from a setting... but that is not exactly difficult to figure out. And again, why are we wasting time on information already in the PHB by listing all the classes and subclasses? And what do you mean by "how Greyhawk does it" Greyhawk has the classes and subclasses that are in the game, why are we assuming it doesn't?

And both of these lists are inherently limiting, because anything they list here can only be from the PHB.

Spells? Why are we talking about specific spells? Yes, they can be used in world-building, but it is far more useful to talk about magic in general, than to start speaking specific spells and magic items. Especially since the magic items are going to have their own chapter.

And what is with part 8 of this single chapter? Your PC? This is being read by the GM, not a player, so they don't have a PC.

There is so much of this list which could be ripped out and replaced with things that are actually useful to talk about.

 

[Minigiant]

I think there is so little hope of 2 (and likely 3) showing up as full things like that, that it isn't even worth thinking about. I would, however, like it mentioned somewhere that different worlds can very well have different spells/classes/magic items/species, etc... I would also like it mentioned that part of a GMs job is bouncing there campaign ideas off of their prospective players, and (unless one is doing it for fun, which is super!) not putting a hundred hours into it before doing so. [I would do it for fun anyway!]

Nothing about hundreds of hours

Dwarves are from (roll) Northern Mountains and Eastern Mountains
Elves are from the (roll) Eastern Forest.
(Roll) Halflings and Tieflings are (roll) minorities in the (roll) Human kingdom.

Roll traits for game aspects or describe assigning traits to them.