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D&D (2024) Greyhawk Confirmed. Tell Me Why.

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Youre right.

The 2014 DMs Guide is more like mentioning the possibility of worldbuilding while aggressively discouraging.

It tries to force any setting to conform to the Forgotten Realms-like gods and planes.
That's like super wrong. The complete opposite of the way it's set up in fact.

It starts off telling you the core assumptions of the game. Then it goes about telling you that you can change them and actively giving you a variety of examples of how to do it.

Then it goes into the gods of your world and gives you several ways other than the default to run it, including monotheism, dualism, animism, and more. It also gives you a variety of pantheons to pick from, the realms being only one of the several.

After that it goes into how to change the cosmology and those differ from the Realms as well. It even teaches the DM that he can cull planes or mix them if he wants to. Or even invent new planes!

Once your cosmology and core assumptions are built, it tells you how to build continents, countries, settlements, etc.

There is nothing that encourages, aggressively or otherwise, building the Realms.

That said, they could have gone into more detail on those things, which goes to @Parmandur's point that there is room for improvement and the devs aren't happy with how it turns out.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Did it do a better job of teaching world building than it did of teaching DMs to comfortably run a short adventure? ;-)
I don't know. I don't remember it teaching DMs how to run short adventures, but then I tend to skip that part of every DMG if it has one, since I've been running games since 1983 and am plenty comfortable with long, short and medium lengths.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
That's planning a campaign. Not worldbuilding.

And none of the info they give to connect campaigns and adventures to the world you build.

No "this is how you connect your pantheon to your adventures".

No "Here is how you integrate a faction or government into your campaign".

Just "here is how to roll up a city"
Not how to use the city. Not important aspects you should always include in a city or town.
No, you are wrong. How to build your world, planes, pantheons, etc. is NOT campaign building. It's literally world building, like it says.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Nothing about hundreds of hours

Dwarves are from (roll) Northern Mountains and Eastern Mountains
Elves are from the (roll) Eastern Forest.
(Roll) Halflings and Tieflings are (roll) minorities in the (roll) Human kingdom.

Roll traits for game aspects or describe assigning traits to them.
Why? Random is about the worst way to world build. That's how you end up with nonsense like arctic dwarves living in deserts. The DM should be taught how to decide where things go and place things logically, thinking about interactions between various places, races, gods, etc.
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
Yes you did
Since you have a terrible habit of misinterpreting or misunderstanding what I write, I am pretty confident I didn't, and you just made something up.

Every example you gave was "elf" and "Goliath", "elves live here, goliaths live there" "elves act this way, goliaths act that way"

So since you need to do it for elves and goliaths in the same way... what's the difference?
Such as here, where you misinterpret me giving examples of what could be in that chapter so that new worldbuilders would have ideas of what to think about when making their world, as things that must be done.

The fact I mentioned elves doesn't mean that I am requiring or "demanding" elves be given any special treatment--or that we (or WotC, or new worldbuilders, or whomever) can't use elf lore from other editions, or anything else you're making up right now.

Sure, you can answer a question with a few words if you really want, but that seems to cause an issue, doesn't it? Because they picked Greyhawk, according to you, then they will have far too much to explain and showcase. But also, according to you, the level of information they really need is only two sentences per race to cover everything?

Do you think after writing the handful of paragraphs describing Goliaths in the PHB, that the designers would be incapable of writing these sentences you are demanding? And would anyone be happy if the entirety of all elves across all of greyhawk was reduced to a mere sentence? I mean, you are the one demanding these things are problems, but then your solutions are so bare-bones and simple... are they even issues?
And you're misinterpreting or misunderstanding me here again. The few words or sentences are what the book would suggest new worldbuilders write, so they don't feel they have to write reams of in-depth information on every aspect of their setting.

Because certain other posters here have said that to them, worldbuilding means going into incredible amounts of depth regarding things that aren't actually important to the game, like detailing ten generations of the royal family. That's not important for either the game or for most players to use as background information. But writing a couple of sentences on where and how the various species live is something that a new worldbuilder can and should focus on.

Interesting. They are going to teach people to show off the world they have made to others? Or, is making the world the actual action of world-building? Kind of hard to tell with your facepalm which one you think is world-building and which isn't.
And you're misunderstanding me again. You must be doing this on purpose. Do you really not understand what I wrote? Or that those two different paragraphs referred to two different things?

I'm sure you did not say those exact words. But you have repeatedly framed the choice of greyhawk as a mistake, a grave one,
Nope! Another misunderstanding--or are you outright making stuff up now? What I have said is that it would be better for them to make a new world in this hypothetical chapter. "This would be better" =/= "not making this choice is a grave mistake."

one that could have been avoided if they just did things the way you would have done them. You have never ackowledged a single good point about their choice,
Mostly because I doubt that WotC is going to lean into the things that make Greyhawk different from any other standard fantasy world, like having a crashed spaceship.

If they did, if they decided that not only were they going to emphasize the weirder or at least nonstandard aspects of the setting, but make them into the main focus of the setting--such as my thought (not demand, not requirement, just an idea) that they bring weird tech and radiation mutants and things like that into the world--then I would say that Greyhawk is a good choice. And so you don't misunderstand this, "is a good choice" is my personal opinion on the matter, not an objective measure of Greyhawk's worth, since I have no personal nostalgia for the setting and my favorite D&D settings have always been the non-standard ones.

And, I will reiterate my position. They had good reasons to pick Greyhawk. We have no reason to assume this chapter will fail at its intended goal. That is it. That is my entire position which you keep stringently arguing against.
Since I at no point ever said that this chapter will fail if they pick Greyhawk, this is you either misinterpreting, misunderstanding, or lying about what I've said and done. Which is it?
 

gban007

Adventurer
Since you have a terrible habit of misinterpreting or misunderstanding what I write, I am pretty confident I didn't, and you just made something up.


Such as here, where you misinterpret me giving examples of what could be in that chapter so that new worldbuilders would have ideas of what to think about when making their world, as things that must be done.

The fact I mentioned elves doesn't mean that I am requiring or "demanding" elves be given any special treatment--or that we (or WotC, or new worldbuilders, or whomever) can't use elf lore from other editions, or anything else you're making up right now.


And you're misinterpreting or misunderstanding me here again. The few words or sentences are what the book would suggest new worldbuilders write, so they don't feel they have to write reams of in-depth information on every aspect of their setting.

Because certain other posters here have said that to them, worldbuilding means going into incredible amounts of depth regarding things that aren't actually important to the game, like detailing ten generations of the royal family. That's not important for either the game or for most players to use as background information. But writing a couple of sentences on where and how the various species live is something that a new worldbuilder can and should focus on.


And you're misunderstanding me again. You must be doing this on purpose. Do you really not understand what I wrote? Or that those two different paragraphs referred to two different things?


Nope! Another misunderstanding--or are you outright making stuff up now? What I have said is that it would be better for them to make a new world in this hypothetical chapter. "This would be better" =/= "not making this choice is a grave mistake."


Mostly because I doubt that WotC is going to lean into the things that make Greyhawk different from any other standard fantasy world, like having a crashed spaceship.

If they did, if they decided that not only were they going to emphasize the weirder or at least nonstandard aspects of the setting, but make them into the main focus of the setting--such as my thought (not demand, not requirement, just an idea) that they bring weird tech and radiation mutants and things like that into the world--then I would say that Greyhawk is a good choice. And so you don't misunderstand this, "is a good choice" is my personal opinion on the matter, not an objective measure of Greyhawk's worth, since I have no personal nostalgia for the setting and my favorite D&D settings have always been the non-standard ones.


Since I at no point ever said that this chapter will fail if they pick Greyhawk, this is you either misinterpreting, misunderstanding, or lying about what I've said and done. Which is it?
You have called it a bad idea to use Greyhawk, which while not saying using Greyhawk a mistake, does feel stronger than just saying isn't the best choice.
Some of those weird bits like strange tech/ radiation mutations could be good in the DMG for examples on how you could make a setting your own as such, putting some peculiarities / mysteries in there, without making the whole setting unusual.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
No, you are wrong. How to build your world, planes, pantheons, etc. is NOT campaign building. It's literally world building, like it says.
It's not worldbuilding because they are TELLING you what's in your world.

They are giving you a setting. Not teaching you to build your own.
 


Cadence

Legend
Supporter
It's not worldbuilding because they are TELLING you what's in your world.

They are giving you a setting. Not teaching you to build your own.

Where in Chapter 1 of the DMG do they do that? The offer you the various levels of magic to think about, they offer you various ways to think about pantheons and othe religious set ups, etc ... There is nowhere in that chapter that they hand you the FR (or any other specific world).
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
It's not worldbuilding because they are TELLING you what's in your world.
No, they are not. They are telling you that you can make it up however you like and are giving information on various ways. Nothing says that you have to pick from one of the listed methods. You are free to pick from various methods and mix them, or create your own.

It teaches you how the world can be built and let's you know in no uncertain terms that nothing is set in stone and you the DM decide everything.
They are giving you a setting. Not teaching you to build your own.
World buildinng = setting building. The Greyhawk setting= Greyhawk world built. The Forgotten Realms setting = Forgotten Realms world built. This seems to be the source of your confusion.

They are teaching you how to world build your own personal setting.
 

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