Greyhawk setting material

Urriak Uruk

Explorer
Umm, no it doesn't? See, this is why I have such a tough time with these arguments. Folks are just making stuff up to support their points rather than actually LOOKING at what's there. I mean, THIS is the relevant part of GoS:



That's IT. That's the sum total of reaction. No "utterly alien" or poor treatment is mentioned AT ALL.

Your argument doesn't actually reflect anything that's actually written.
Sorry, you're wrong. There is a section that I'll quote;

SALTMARSH OVERVIEW

Saltmarsh's roughly five thousand residents are predominantly human, with the dwarven mining contingent of about two hundred workers the largest non-human faction in town. Elves and halflings draw no special notice, since the Silverstand hosts a wood elf enclave and a few halfling villages are tucked in the hills around town. The residents react to other visitors, especially tieflings and dragonborn, with a mixture of curiosity and fear.

<drops mic>
 

Parmandur

Legend
Sorry, you're wrong. There is a section that I'll quote;

SALTMARSH OVERVIEW

Saltmarsh's roughly five thousand residents are predominantly human, with the dwarven mining contingent of about two hundred workers the largest non-human faction in town. Elves and halflings draw no special notice, since the Silverstand hosts a wood elf enclave and a few halfling villages are tucked in the hills around town. The residents react to other visitors, especially tieflings and dragonborn, with a mixture of curiosity and fear.

<drops mic>
He meant that the book does not specify the way the town receives the Tiefling Smuggler, leaving it to DM interpretation. I can only imagine she is held at arm's length in town, valued but not beloved, but that's an interpretation.
 

Urriak Uruk

Explorer
He meant that the book does not specify the way the town receives the Tiefling Smuggler, leaving it to DM interpretation. I can only imagine she is held at arm's length in town, valued but not beloved, but that's an interpretation.
I mean maybe that is correct just for the tiefling smuggler character, that the town would see often. But the book specifically says that the town of Saltmarsh views tieflings/dragonborn with fear and curiosity, so his larger point about the races is wrong.
 
Sorry, you're wrong. There is a section that I'll quote;

SALTMARSH OVERVIEW

Saltmarsh's roughly five thousand residents are predominantly human, with the dwarven mining contingent of about two hundred workers the largest non-human faction in town. Elves and halflings draw no special notice, since the Silverstand hosts a wood elf enclave and a few halfling villages are tucked in the hills around town. The residents react to other visitors, especially tieflings and dragonborn, with a mixture of curiosity and fear.
So by that sentence you emphasized:

1. Saltmarsh reacts poorly to tieflings and dragonborn.
2. Saltmarsh is in Greyhawk.
3. Therefore, there are tieflings and dragonborn in Greyhawk.

< Mic drop >
 

Urriak Uruk

Explorer
So by that sentence you emphasized:

1. Saltmarsh reacts poorly to tieflings and dragonborn.
2. Saltmarsh is in Greyhawk.
3. Therefore, there are tieflings and dragonborn in Greyhawk.

< Mic drop >
<picks up mic>

Point three is incorrect. If I lived in medieval France and had never seen an elephant, I might react with a mixture of curiosity and fear. This does not mean elephants are native to France, in fact it is evidence to the opposite.

<puts mic back on stand as the number of drops may lead to the mic breaking>
 
But the elephant still exists on Earth for you to see. Occram's razor suggests that while uncommon in that region of Keoland, they do exist beyond the scope of that region.

Sorry man, WotC just confirmed both races exist on Oerth. Game over man.
 

Urriak Uruk

Explorer
But the elephant still exists on Earth for you to see. Occram's razor suggests that while uncommon in that region of Keoland, they do exist beyond the scope of that region.

Sorry man, WotC just confirmed both races exist on Oerth. Game over man.
That's not how language works man.

If I changed the sentence to say: "The residents react to other visitors, especially My Little Ponies and Gojira monsters, with fear and curiosity," that doesn't suddenly mean those things exist in Oerth.

That's also not how Occam's Razor works, a theory about assumptions (if anything it supports my argument because if someone reacts with curiosity/fear it assumes those things aren't native to that world, but whatever).

Wizard's confirmed nothing, those races are in the D&D multiverse so are mentioned as something people in Saltmarsh would react to with fear.

I really should ditch this thread, if people can't agree on simple sentence structure, the argument is going to be pretty pointless.
 

Mort

Community Supporter
Re: Dragonborn and Tieflings in Greyhawk.

I've allowed a Dragonborn into my current group - but his origins are murky and being explored as the campaign progresses (I allowed him in with the caveat that I get to mess with his history and background as I see fit, something I don't normally do).

As for reception: The group started in the City of Greyhawk. In my campaign, the city is more than anything based on ankh-morpork (from Discworld). The residents have seen just about everything. They barely blink an eye toward the dragonborn - particularly since he grew up in the city and is useful (a smith's apprentice to start).

But as they get further from the city - reception gets colder moving toward outright hostile in many areas.
 
So you're suggesting that WotC meant to write

"The residents react to other visitors, especially tieflings and dragonborn who are not native to this world, with a mixture of curiosity and fear."

Well crap, I hope the best response we give aliens from another planet is a mixture curiosity and fear. Saltmarsh is downright accommodating to visitors from other realities, I figure they'd be killed on sight!

Your logical gymnastics required to make that sentence suggest neither of those races exist as natural citizens of Oreth is Olympics worthy. Might as well suggested muls and warforged would get the same response.

WotC made this whole argument moot in one sentence. It's over.
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
WotC made this whole argument moot in one sentence. It's over.
Maybe, except that-

1. That's an incorrect reading; and ...

2. Saltmarsh, like the other APs, is "set" in GH, but isn't a GH sourcebook- so it has to be at least somewhat setting-agnostic. That's why you can set in, inter alia, FR (see page 39) easily.

But sure, if the argument is over in your mind, it is best to discontinue it rather than loudly proclaiming how "GAME OVER" it is. Three times. ;)
 
hmmmm...i agree with @Urriak Uruk
Medeival villages held demons in fear and curiosity as well as half demons but few were ever sure they'd seen one (so they viewed them as vanishingly rare and still had a very common view on them due to a couple crazies that were sure). Seems pretty blatantly obvious from real world examples to me. And greyhawk actually does people reacting realistically within the society they live in to foreign out of place things pretty well from my experience. Just saying...

I think its pretty common sense that fiend/demon blooded people were a signifficant but rare (proportional to population) element in greyhawk.
 
Side note: 😈I refute that vecna was just a man though.

His mother was a healer but probably a warlock specifically. Likely in a pact with someone. Verdant young femake makes a pact with an unspeakably old entity. Whats the most common agreement? How many kids did she have that we know of? What was vecna a genius prodigy at? HMMMMMMMMMMM!!!
 
i seriously doubt the father was a fiend or demon though. Im thinking more like...a long sleeping god. Perhaps one with an ancestral tie. Which makes this potentially incest. Which would actually fit. Vecna growing up to do legendarily vile things and being spawned by a vile act. Its a hidden plot point that fits the mythic archetypes hes given.
 

Urriak Uruk

Explorer
actually, the argument isn't 'how do people react to tieflings/dragonborn', but 'do they even exist in GH.' It seems to be a rather bitter topic....
To be fair, I was viewing it as a spectrum (one end being "Exists and are viewed as common," the other being "Does not exist") and I believe the section moves the needle toward "Does not exist" (but doesn't confirm anything either way).
 

David Howery

Adventurer
To be fair, I was viewing it as a spectrum (one end being "Exists and are viewed as common," the other being "Does not exist")
I would put both as 'exist, but not common'. Gnomes in 5E are apparently not common either, but GH always had them as being abundant, so I'd change that....
 
actually, the argument isn't 'how do people react to tieflings/dragonborn', but 'do they even exist in GH.' It seems to be a rather bitter topic....
I was actually more using that as evidence of how common they were. Rare rather. As in, the way they act makes a good case for how rare the object in question was.

Via this method (and also just paying attention to the story in grey hawk) i think the obvious answer is half fiends/half demons are exceedingly rare. Tieflings are less rare possibly by up to an order of magnitude by the end of the story but still exceedingly rare.
 

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