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Greyhawk setting material

Urriak Uruk

Explorer
I would put both as 'exist, but not common'. Gnomes in 5E are apparently not common either, but GH always had them as being abundant, so I'd change that....
I think the language is vague enough that you can decide either way (I actually think it is purposefully written that way), and I found it noteworthy that both were put in a separate category of looked at as more foreign than the other races.

Of course, GoS does make tieflings canon, there's an NPC of one (I think it fits well). Nothing in the book makes dragonborn so, but you could easily make them "exist but very rare."
 
Also acererak. Even vecnas advisors wanted vecna to kill him (whike he was still a child) because the dude was a cambion (half and half). Vecna killed all the advisors. Vecna is for equal opportunity clearly (jk) but the mood in the room of his advisors doesnt exactly encourage a view that outsider blood was common. So probably not native. I cant find any examples of people feeling like they were just a normal thing. I looked in the dankest room on oerth (vecnas backroom board room where the smoke is probably always green. From magic you degenerates. Sheesh.) And even there they treeted him with curiosity and fear. And wabting him dead.
 

Zardnaar

Adventurer
If they do add Dragonborn I hope they do it correctly vs FR lets blow something up.

Tieflings have a more obvious in universe origin.

Dragonborn should be from far away lands or other world's.

I don't think they will replace Greyhawk city with Dragonfalcon.

I don't regard modern sensibilities as things like cheesecake art but more toning down things like the races magically all getting along and things like the slave Lord's and Scarlet Brotherhood who are basically Nazis. Greyhawk needs to be a bit darker than FR/Nerath/Eberron.
 
If they do add Dragonborn I hope they do it correctly vs FR lets blow something up.

Tieflings have a more obvious in universe origin.

Dragonborn should be from far away lands [-]or other world's[/-].

I don't think they will replace Greyhawk city with Dragonfalcon.

I don't regard modern sensibilities as things like cheesecake art but more toning down things like the races magically all getting along and things like the slave Lord's and Scarlet Brotherhood who are basically Nazis. Greyhawk needs to be a bit darker than FR/Nerath/Eberron.
With one small edit, I agree with you.
 

Coroc

Explorer
...
Part of what made DS, RL, PS, and other 2e settings more distinctive in comparison to GH and FR was that they had unique baseline worlds as play environments. If you add all of the same classes and races and gods and spells and magic items to every setting, they all become the same, in which case then there's no point in having any of them at all (a la The Incredibles). So maintaining each setting's uniqueness seems important to me as a way to show why and how we play D&D differently in Krynn vs. in Spelljammer vs. in Blackmoor, et al.
...
This ^^^^^^ is what is also part of the reason why the discussion is so heated up.

But the problem is, that us old guys are talking about something we loved, that newer generation never experienced that way, or never felt as being important or whatever.
 

Zardnaar

Adventurer
Remember in the old 1E material Drow are very rare.

Tieflings rarer than that IMHO unless they retcon Iuz lands as a Tiefling Empire. Which would be bad.
 
@Coroc uncommon though they may be, lovers of the older content do happen in the younger generations. I love the old stuff for instance and I'm early gen z - late millenial roughly. I recently got a friend of mine (14 years old) to start dm'ing his first campaign. He's doing it in a very 2e lore heavy style with some 3e content sprinkled in where its able to fit thematically and is using system rules primarily from 3e. So players like me do exist. The pressure to be "current year" in all things pop cultural though and the active support being entirely 5e right now basically suppresses the aparent numbers of young people who would totally play the older stuff if the situation was just a little different. There just needs to be a way to make prior editions highly accessible (and less culty "everything must be current year" behavior would help to. I swear this.)
 

Coroc

Explorer
@Coroc uncommon though they may be, lovers of the older content do happen in the younger generations. I love the old stuff for instance and I'm early gen z - late millenial roughly. I recently got a friend of mine (14 years old) to start dm'ing his first campaign. He's doing it in a very 2e lore heavy style with some 3e content sprinkled in where its able to fit thematically and is using system rules primarily from 3e. So players like me do exist. The pressure to be "current year" in all things pop cultural though and the active support being entirely 5e right now basically suppresses the aparent numbers of young people who would totally play the older stuff if the situation was just a little different. There just needs to be a way to make prior editions highly accessible (and less culty "everything must be current year" behavior would help to. I swear this.)
Well, my table is guys and girls approx. 15 years younger than me. Although they started out with some 1e stuff they pretty fast switched to 3.x e and did also a bit of 4e. Myself I started up with 1e/2e simultaneously probably more 2e, and I never did tabletop with 3e or 4e. I love 5e most of all editions for it is the smoothest version to play pen and paper.
But I use the 1e and 2e greyhawk stuff. and before that I did a 2e ravenloft campaign, both converted to 5e.
So for my players this is mostly new stuff content wise, they do not know much of the 2e stuff.
Sometimes, especially in the beginning there was some "worlds collide" situations :p
But they are very settled and mature people so we could easily resolve this and had much fun at the table since then.
 

Zardnaar

Adventurer
Im 41 running for people in mid 20s.

Sometimes talk to the younger people in other groups. Occasionally pull out something interesting. So far they seem to like.

Tome of Beasts
1983 GH boxed set
Midgard world book
Old phb
OD&D boxed set (gets called alpha)
 

grodog

Adventurer
Well, my table is guys and girls approx. 15 years younger than me.
I'm in the process of starting up a local Greyhawk campaign and am running AD&D 1e for the rules set, and had 14 players respond to the survey saying they were interested, and four of them had zero experience with Greyhawk, and 2 zero experience with D&D in general.

So, the interest is definitely out there, in both the setting and the earlier editions for rules, too.

Allan.
 

Hussar

Legend
Just as a question.

Has anyone actually suggested that we blow up the setting in order to add a new race like Dragonborn? Has there been any even hint that anyone thinks that we have to massively rework the setting in order to add Dragonborn or that the best way to add anything new is to take the time to do it with the least disruption possible?

So, maybe we can dial back with the whole "adding this will destroy the setting" rhetoric? No one disagrees. Everyone agrees that anything added should be done with the least disruption possible. Right?
 

Hussar

Legend
Sorry, you're wrong. There is a section that I'll quote;

SALTMARSH OVERVIEW

Saltmarsh's roughly five thousand residents are predominantly human, with the dwarven mining contingent of about two hundred workers the largest non-human faction in town. Elves and halflings draw no special notice, since the Silverstand hosts a wood elf enclave and a few halfling villages are tucked in the hills around town. The residents react to other visitors, especially tieflings and dragonborn, with a mixture of curiosity and fear.

<drops mic>
"Mixture of curiosity and fear" is hardly treating them as totally alien and attacking them on sight.

But, hey, if that's how YOU want to interpret it, that's fine. Just realize that that's YOUR interpretation, and not really supported by the actual text.
 
If I was running a GH campaign, I would include tieflings as 'rare, used to be non-existent, appeared sometime after Iuz returned to his lands'....
Honestly, given the history of the Great Kingdom over the last century or so, I'd think a noticeable population would have appeared there decades ago. The Overkings didn't sit on something nicknamed "The Fiend-Seeking Throne" for nothing, after all...
 

Hussar

Legend
The point is well made though. If they are going to make changes to the setting, walking softly is definitely the easier way to go. It's much, MUCH easier to slip in small changes than big ones. Just look at the 5e Monster Manual and then compare it to the 3e Monster Manual to see how much you can change the game without ruffing feathers.

And, frankly, there are a million ways to slip in something as minor as a new PC race into the game. They did it quite well with Tieflings in GoS for example. That tiefling isn't a smuggler. She's there as the imperial representative of Iuz, waving the flag and all, legally buying food supplies to ship home. This is all above board and legal and everyone knows it.

You could easily add in another PC race in a similar fashion. The notion that Race X (whether it's Dragonborn or Lupins or whatever) have always been in the setting, but, marginalized and living in small, isolated communities on the fringes. They haven't been mentioned before because, well, they're just not that important in the larger picture. That's probably the simplest solution.

Oh, and just because everyone else is doing the mic drops, I'd point out that Dragonborn do appear in the artwork for Saltmarsh, so, they are canon in Greyhawk. And, yes, GoS is canonically Greyhawk despite the fact that there are sidebars for placing it in other settings. It is NOT a generic product. It is SPECIFICALLY placed in Greyhawk.

 

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