D&D 5E Greyhawk: Why We Need Mo' Oerth by 2024

Just to be clear .... WoTC's designers are partisans in favor of Greyhawk ... and yet they haven't made it a mainstream setting in 27 years.

With partisans like that, maybe Greyhawk needs enemies at Hasbro?
Well, yes, I think enemies who were directed to make GH a success would have done a better job. Fans are often inept at convincing others to share their fandom. Part of the issue I think has been a terror of changing GH than many fans have but enemies would not. I see you are past such concerns at least.
 

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AdmundfortGeographer

Getting lost in fantasy maps
The time to ask that was the first time I said it. Claiming you don't understand it, when you understood it just fine the first few times means to me that you're just trying to bust my balls rather have an honest discussion. If not, well, soz, next time ask earlier if you genuinely don't understand a phrase!
I know it’s twist on the line from Mean Girls about Fletch, which has become a meme, used over and over. Which is why I asked what you mean by it.

You did evasively drop something about cats falling off a fence. You kept dodging what you meant by repeated complete failures. I just wanted to know what you meant before I assumed something because frankly I think I get it, but I didn’t want to read unsaid meanings like seems so very popularly done.

Because if I just replied “I think it is unfair to call it repeated complete failures” we’d just circle into the tedious and inevitable misunderstandings. Since you’d rather read the tea leaves and project some unsaid meaning behind what I reply than just clear it up without a meme. I guess you were just being fast and casual with a hint of thread-crapper. Cool.

I think “repeated complete failure”, unfairly and vastly overstates the past published iterations.
 

You did evasively drop something about cats falling off a fence.
I know it’s twist on the line from Mean Girls about Fletch, which has become a meme, used over and over. Which is why I asked what you mean by it.
Okay so at this point you're basically saying seemingly "I don't know what your words mean, mean word man!", and I'm just really not convinced that you er... mean... that in an honest way. Like "evasively dropped", come on, what is this? I used an obvious and somewhat hackney'd metaphor about a cat, one I've seen other people here use. You didn't question it. Next time ask at the time, as I said - I haven't dodged anything - well until now because now I don't trust you (perhaps unfairly but who knows eh?). You're being pretty sassy ("thread-crapper" yourself mate) so I don't think I am being unfair lol.
I think “repeated complete failure”, unfairly and vastly overstates the past published iterations.
Okay? You're wrong lol, IMHO. /shrugsies
 

Urriak Uruk

Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
Yes, bring back Greyhawk, but I'm going to disagree with you, Snarf, and call for remaining true to the Gygaxian mold (and take "mold" in whatever way you want).

My protest is one of aesthetic principle, and really extends towards a wide range of media. Too often old things are remade and painted over, and lose their original, archetypal form and quality. There is something to the idea of riffing within a limited set of parameters; just as jazz or raga players solo within a theme of musical phrases and qualities - it isn't just chaos.

This is why I think, in some ways, Golarion is a more cohesive setting than the Realms: it was designed with being a shared world, and to continually be expanded upon. It may have started as Erik Mona's , but it quickly become not just his (TBH, I don't know anything about its origins - and it may be that its coherency is due to his oversight? I don't know).

The Realms, on the other hand, had existed for two decades, in some form or fashion, before the publication of the gray box. And Greyhawk was distinctly Gygax's until he was exiled from the realm.

This is not to say that I think post-gray box Realms is bad, or even that post-Gygax Greyhawk isn't truly Greyhawkian. But even the best longbows--if bent far enough--will break. At the least, FR became more and more "heapish," and lost some of is distinct Greenwoodian flavor.

I mean, let's face it: Al-Qadim is cool (and, quite frankly, cooler than Calimshan), but does it really make sense in the Realms? And is it necessary, with Calimshan? And don't get me started on Maztica or Kara-Tur, not to mention the Horde and Moonshaes.

Now this is not to say that you're suggesting that they "Realmsify" Greyhawk, but that adapting or updating it into a different cultural milieu can end up diminish its signature quality.

It is a similar aesthetic issue I have with updating other media to the current context: it often feels rather cheap and, dare I say, colonial and is sometimes (though not always) ideologically motivated - like the new creators want to erase the original vision and put their own stamp on it. Some things can be revisioned; I liked both the Nolan Batman films and was pleasantly surprised with the new one that just came out, even though I still have a special place in my heart for the Tim Burton/Michael Keaton one (and yes, I know there are earlier forms of Batman). But in both cases, they worked because the revisioning played within certain themes; and the changes were aesthetic, not ideological.

There is another option: Why not, instead, create new worlds, new superheroes, new ideas that are created to express the ideas you want to explore? Why not create a new D&D setting, even a kitchen sink one, that can be endlessly expanded upon? A Golarion for 5E?

In other words, I don't think dragonborn (or whatever) belong in Greyhawk, and I think Greyhawk is lesser for having them. I mean, why are they necessary at all? Certainly, individual DMs can do what they want and cater (or not) to the desires of their players. But as far as the published books? Keep the aesthetic signature that is unique to Greyhawk. Otherwise, yes, it feels closer to the Realms or just any generic branded D&D world. What ends up happening is a diminishing effect. Chris Pine is a solid actor, but he's not Kirk. William Shatner is Kirk (in the case of Star Trek, I would have rather seen an entirely new space franchise, or at least a different captain and era - which is why Picard and TNG was great...it was still "Star Trekkian," but wasn't painting over the original).

The settings are an opportunity to explore different themes, to combine different elements of D&D lore in unique ways. We don't need starshimmer elves in Dark Sun (or whatever), and we don't need nice drow in Greyhawk. Let the worlds be distinct. D&D can be many things to many people - that is a strength of the game that can and should be exploited. But if everything becomes only some things to some people, it lessens its potentiality; or if everything must be included in some form or fashion, not matter how it jars with the aesthetic signature, it diminishes distinctiveness.

I'll be honest, this was a lot of words and I totally missed the point... what are you advocating for?
 


Mercurius

Legend
I'll be honest, this was a lot of words and I totally missed the point... what are you advocating for?
Short version: If you publish Greyhawk, do it in a classic style that retains the Gygaxian vibe. If you want a setting that expresses the game and community as it is today, make a new setting -- one that is explicitly designed to embody the qualities of D&D, c. 2020s.

Use different settings as opportunities to explore different styles and themes, rather than feel the need to cram everything into every setting (e.g. my joking example of "Starshimmer Elves" in Dark Sun, or "nice Drow"in Greyhawk). Each setting can and should be distinct and unique, imo.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
Yes, bring back Greyhawk, but I'm going to disagree with you, Snarf, and call for remaining true to the Gygaxian mold (and take "mold" in whatever way you want).

My protest is one of aesthetic principle, and really extends towards a wide range of media. Too often old things are remade and painted over, and lose their original, archetypal form and quality. There is something to the idea of riffing within a limited set of parameters; just as jazz or raga players solo within a theme of musical phrases and qualities - it isn't just chaos.

This is why I think, in some ways, Golarion is a more cohesive setting than the Realms: it was designed with being a shared world, and to continually be expanded upon. It may have started as Erik Mona's , but it quickly become not just his (TBH, I don't know anything about its origins - and it may be that its coherency is due to his oversight? I don't know).

The Realms, on the other hand, had existed for two decades, in some form or fashion, before the publication of the gray box. And Greyhawk was distinctly Gygax's until he was exiled from the realm.

This is not to say that I think post-gray box Realms is bad, or even that post-Gygax Greyhawk isn't truly Greyhawkian. But even the best longbows--if bent far enough--will break. At the least, FR became more and more "heapish," and lost some of is distinct Greenwoodian flavor.

I mean, let's face it: Al-Qadim is cool (and, quite frankly, cooler than Calimshan), but does it really make sense in the Realms? And is it necessary, with Calimshan? And don't get me started on Maztica or Kara-Tur, not to mention the Horde and Moonshaes.

Now this is not to say that you're suggesting that they "Realmsify" Greyhawk, but that adapting or updating it into a different cultural milieu can end up diminish its signature quality.

It is a similar aesthetic issue I have with updating other media to the current context: it often feels rather cheap and, dare I say, colonial and is sometimes (though not always) ideologically motivated - like the new creators want to erase the original vision and put their own stamp on it. Some things can be revisioned; I liked both the Nolan Batman films and was pleasantly surprised with the new one that just came out, even though I still have a special place in my heart for the Tim Burton/Michael Keaton one (and yes, I know there are earlier forms of Batman). But in both cases, they worked because the revisioning played within certain themes; and the changes were aesthetic, not ideological.

There is another option: Why not, instead, create new worlds, new superheroes, new ideas that are created to express the ideas you want to explore? Why not create a new D&D setting, even a kitchen sink one, that can be endlessly expanded upon? A Golarion for 5E?

In other words, I don't think dragonborn (or whatever) belong in Greyhawk, and I think Greyhawk is lesser for having them. I mean, why are they necessary at all? Certainly, individual DMs can do what they want and cater (or not) to the desires of their players. But as far as the published books? Keep the aesthetic signature that is unique to Greyhawk. Otherwise, yes, it feels closer to the Realms or just any generic branded D&D world. What ends up happening is a diminishing effect. Chris Pine is a solid actor, but he's not Kirk. William Shatner is Kirk (in the case of Star Trek, I would have rather seen an entirely new space franchise, or at least a different captain and era - which is why Picard and TNG was great...it was still "Star Trekkian," but wasn't painting over the original).

The settings are an opportunity to explore different themes, to combine different elements of D&D lore in unique ways. We don't need starshimmer elves in Dark Sun (or whatever), and we don't need nice drow in Greyhawk. Let the worlds be distinct. D&D can be many things to many people - that is a strength of the game that can and should be exploited. But if everything becomes only some things to some people, it lessens its potentiality; or if everything must be included in some form or fashion, not matter how it jars with the aesthetic signature, it diminishes distinctiveness.

I think the writers have with the limited sample we've seen so far - shown that they get it. Ghosts of Saltmarsh, for ex. had a Tiefling - but as a ship's captain from the Empire of Iuz. Which is EXACTLY where Tieflings would be from and really have existed all along (even if not named as such).
 

Jer

Legend
Supporter
They didn't publish a setting book for it in 3rd ed or 4th, right?
They published the "last gasp" of setting material for Greyhawk for 2e and really wanted to make it work. It was a mixed bag of material - very much a product of the 90s.

Then they tried to make Greyhawk the "default setting" for 3e - including making the Living Greyhawk gazetteer and the setting book you quote, but also trying to thread Greyhawk setting info into the PHB and the DMG. But by 1999 the "default setting" for D&D wasn't anything like Greyhawk anymore - it was much closer to the Realms even by that point. So pretty quickly all that was left of that "default setting" was the names of the gods and a few locations (Saltmarsh showed up again in the DMG 2 for example).

If they do decide to do a 50th anniversary Greyhawk release it'll be interesting to watch the fireworks online. If I were Wizards I wouldn't want to go anywhere near it, except to maybe do a special reprint of the original Folio or boxed set the way they did the OD&D white box set back in the day.
 

Mercurius

Legend
I however do not believe that there is a contest to win the setting championship and be The One. I believe the D&D hobby can support multiple settings, even multiple WotC-published settings. (Indeed it current is).

And my stance is that a setting not attaining eternal publishing is not a qualification of a “complete failure”, especially now as no one is even asking for that right now. Much less “dethrone” FR in a dumb face off. You’re pulling that out of nothing.
This goes back to that thread in which the OP equated (confused) quality and popularity. I won't speak for @Ruin Explorer , but I don't think he's at all saying that GH is or was a creative failure, just that it failed to take off as a popular (and thus economically viable) setting in early 2000, as some at WotC hoped it would.
 

Urriak Uruk

Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
Short version: If you publish Greyhawk, do it in a classic style that retains the Gygaxian vibe. If you want a setting that expresses the game and community as it is today, make a new setting -- one that is explicitly designed to embody the qualities of D&D, c. 2020s.

Use different settings as opportunities to explore different styles and themes, rather than feel the need to cram everything into every setting (e.g. my joking example of "Starshimmer Elves" in Dark Sun, or "nice Drow"in Greyhawk). Each setting can and should be distinct and unique, imo.

Oh cool. Yeah I concur with this.
 

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