Azzy
ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
Right. Tabaxi were in the 1e FF, and would have been in Greyhawk like anything else in the FF.
D&D 5E Greyhawk: Why We Need Mo' Oerth by 2024
EzekielRaiden
Follower of the Way
Since I know you dislike point-by-point responses, @Snarf Zagyg, here's my best effort at one that responds to the whole while still (more or less) responding in sequence. Hopefully you do not feel I have misquoted you, in places where I reference or paraphrase your post.
As sort of a foregoing thing...you never actually explained why it is imperative for D&D to get a new publication of GH. You explained why it's relevant as a historical artefact, and gave explanations of how it differs from (some) other settings both recent and long-standing. But I don't really see an explanation for how imperative it is to do this. You've done quite a bit to say what form the GH setting should take in 5(.5)e, and why it should take that form and not some other form, but not really explained why it's imperative.
Moving on: I have little to say about the history because much of this is either outside my experience, or something I have already heard elsewhere, so I leave most of that aside. (And, to be clear, I did see your facetious note about Dragonlance, so yes, I did actually read the whole thing!)
I would, however, like to make an important note: I find it unusual that you are so dead-set on the need for an ignorance of what lies beyond the horizon, whether that be a physical horizon ("no one can be sure what else is even on the world beyond the eastern part of one continent") or a temporal horizon ("What is the real story behind the Rain of Colorless Fire and the Invoked Devastation?") I find this unusual because, in many of our prior interactions, you have heavily prioritized the DM having firm, binding answers to these sorts of questions, to the point that it becomes difficult or even destructive to have anything be introduced that does not fit in with those answers. This is, perhaps, a question better answered in another thread. But I find it curious that you think it unacceptable to nail down more than a small part of a large world in one sense, and absolutely essential to nail down essentially every part of a world in the other.
At one point, you said, "You can't cater to angry people." I find this a curious notion, particularly given that 5e itself was very intentionally catering to angry people. Would you be willing to unpack this further?
For your overall point 3, my only responses are, firstly, that I'm glad you included 3A ("not simply faithful to the original") because that is absolutely a serious trap any highly traditional effort can fall into. Being forward-looking (e.g. focused on fostering new fans) can be a difficult thing to do when focused on revitalizing an old and storied thing. Secondly, I certainly hope that they choose either the first or fourth option on your list. For my part, the second and third are effectively the same thing, just whether "the evil" has already won or is merely beginning to win. Neither of those is, IMNSHO, likely to bring in lots of new fans. If the world sucks and is miserable, people are liable to tune out; this was part of (though far from the only part of) why the GoT TV show's final season did not go over well with fans. It would also be a big question as to why one would get in on this "New Greyhawk," since both of those positions are quite well-served by an already existing setting, namely Dark Sun.
By comparison, the only other setting which hits either the first or fourth points to any serious degree was 4e's implied setting, the Points of Light/World of Nentir Vale/"PoLand"/etc. Humorously, because of your interest in keeping the boundaries of the world unknown and mysterious, this actually means you could cannibalize parts of Nentir Vale into Greyhawk, giving "modern" D&D fans something of a foothold. Nentir Vale shares both the "the great kingdoms are fallen and only a few city-states remain free and civilized...for now" style, and while the world itself is not particularly gonzo, much of its mythic backdrop (the Dawn War, the War of Winter, the mutually-assured destruction of Arkhosia and Bael Turath) paints some pretty big potential for gonzo stuff.
I think you could get a lot of mileage out of that. The groundedness and tradition of Greyhawk and the modern components and implied scope of Nentir Vale could be a really winning combination.
As sort of a foregoing thing...you never actually explained why it is imperative for D&D to get a new publication of GH. You explained why it's relevant as a historical artefact, and gave explanations of how it differs from (some) other settings both recent and long-standing. But I don't really see an explanation for how imperative it is to do this. You've done quite a bit to say what form the GH setting should take in 5(.5)e, and why it should take that form and not some other form, but not really explained why it's imperative.
Moving on: I have little to say about the history because much of this is either outside my experience, or something I have already heard elsewhere, so I leave most of that aside. (And, to be clear, I did see your facetious note about Dragonlance, so yes, I did actually read the whole thing!)
I would, however, like to make an important note: I find it unusual that you are so dead-set on the need for an ignorance of what lies beyond the horizon, whether that be a physical horizon ("no one can be sure what else is even on the world beyond the eastern part of one continent") or a temporal horizon ("What is the real story behind the Rain of Colorless Fire and the Invoked Devastation?") I find this unusual because, in many of our prior interactions, you have heavily prioritized the DM having firm, binding answers to these sorts of questions, to the point that it becomes difficult or even destructive to have anything be introduced that does not fit in with those answers. This is, perhaps, a question better answered in another thread. But I find it curious that you think it unacceptable to nail down more than a small part of a large world in one sense, and absolutely essential to nail down essentially every part of a world in the other.
At one point, you said, "You can't cater to angry people." I find this a curious notion, particularly given that 5e itself was very intentionally catering to angry people. Would you be willing to unpack this further?
For your overall point 3, my only responses are, firstly, that I'm glad you included 3A ("not simply faithful to the original") because that is absolutely a serious trap any highly traditional effort can fall into. Being forward-looking (e.g. focused on fostering new fans) can be a difficult thing to do when focused on revitalizing an old and storied thing. Secondly, I certainly hope that they choose either the first or fourth option on your list. For my part, the second and third are effectively the same thing, just whether "the evil" has already won or is merely beginning to win. Neither of those is, IMNSHO, likely to bring in lots of new fans. If the world sucks and is miserable, people are liable to tune out; this was part of (though far from the only part of) why the GoT TV show's final season did not go over well with fans. It would also be a big question as to why one would get in on this "New Greyhawk," since both of those positions are quite well-served by an already existing setting, namely Dark Sun.
By comparison, the only other setting which hits either the first or fourth points to any serious degree was 4e's implied setting, the Points of Light/World of Nentir Vale/"PoLand"/etc. Humorously, because of your interest in keeping the boundaries of the world unknown and mysterious, this actually means you could cannibalize parts of Nentir Vale into Greyhawk, giving "modern" D&D fans something of a foothold. Nentir Vale shares both the "the great kingdoms are fallen and only a few city-states remain free and civilized...for now" style, and while the world itself is not particularly gonzo, much of its mythic backdrop (the Dawn War, the War of Winter, the mutually-assured destruction of Arkhosia and Bael Turath) paints some pretty big potential for gonzo stuff.
I think you could get a lot of mileage out of that. The groundedness and tradition of Greyhawk and the modern components and implied scope of Nentir Vale could be a really winning combination.
EzekielRaiden
Follower of the Way
Two cool ideas I've seen for introducing dragonborn to Greyhawk:
1. Take a leaf from the Barrier Peaks stuff. That is, they're from a magitech (or just straight-up tech) colony ship that crash-landed on Greyhawk long, long ago, long enough that the ship is now well-buried in a cave system or the like. It's been running on automatic all that time, slowly using up its remaining resources, and finally the system recognizes it can't keep going like it has. Dragonborn are thus timelost, used to a significantly higher standard of living and much more industrial capacity. They have high-tech weapons and armor, but cannot easily replace them, forcing them to interact with other societies and try to build up a political power base so they can either repair their ship and leave, or actually begin their colony work. This would explain why they are a sudden addition to the world (they've been here for a long time, but in suspended animation), and why they can have a stable(ish) and functioning society despite living in some part of the Flanaess (or wherever it would make sense to put them) that is otherwise not particularly hospitable and thus, y'know, not particularly inhabited.
2. The dragons of Greyhawk have created dragonborn specifically to be their diplomatic representatives. They are an engineered race, created through magic, blending humanoid advantages with draconic characteristics, specifically designed to be diplomatic and yet imposing. This approach requires less in the way of setting implications (no need for there to be any trade in hypertech stuff sold by, or stolen from, the colonists in #1), but places more of a burden on each individual player to explain how and/or why they're out and about doing their adventuring. It still retains the overall benefit of explaining why dragonborn are a sudden addition, rather than having to deal with the headache of explaining how "no they were always there we just never noticed or cared before now."
LuisCarlos17f
Legend
The dragoborns from Greyhawk were created by Bahamut himself, ordinary humanoids chosen to be his champions against Tiamat minions. Haven't you read "Races of Dragons"? I bought it.
Urriak Uruk
Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
I'm unsure how canon this map is, but I believe the Draconic Imperium of Lynn is canon and described in Dungeon magazine. Empire of Lynn - Greyhawk Wiki). Very little concrete lore, but there is an order called the "Dragonmasters" and the naming of the Imperium seems to indicate at minimum worship of dragons. Very much makes sense for Dragonborn to originate from here if you wanted to include them.
Paul Farquhar
Legend
If you think it's important to having a "mysterious" setting with lots of unexplored land you could just pick up Stryxhaven.
Snarf Zagyg
Notorious Liquefactionist
Great point. In my legions of posts regarding Greyhawk, including this one, that is quite literally the only thing I’ve said about Greyhawk.
“Let’s have Greyhawk because there’s unexplored land, everyone!”
Edit- if I missed the reference per @Ruin Explorer , oops.
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Ruin Explorer
Legend
Yes essentially. It also failed to take off twice (possibly three times?) in the '90s when TSR tried (even harder than WotC) to do the same thing.
It's definitely not a creative failure - it was an inspiration for a lot of what D&D is and has some cool ideas. But we've had like, 30 years of it failing to make waves as compelling setting in and of itself, and it really seems like D&D's decision-makers have wanted it to be for that entire period, and been disappointed when it failed. Even Saltmarsh, which wasn't a failure as a product, I suspect disappointed them in that it didn't spur some renaissance of interest in GH.
Brutal.
I can't speak for Paul but I'm presuming it was a satirical comment aimed at the fact that Strixhaven has like less than 60 pages of setting description and doesn't even manage to fully describe the school, let alone the rest of the setting.
Snarf Zagyg
Notorious Liquefactionist
@EzekielRaiden
Briefly-
I don't think anything in the world is imperative (your choice of emphasis) other than food, safety, and the universal hatred of Bards. I do think that we have the 50th Anniversary coming up, and on or just before that would be the appropriate time to re-visit and reboot Greyhawk. If not then, when? In addition, at a certain point they will probably want to reintroduce just because it's valuable IP- or, at a minimum, to find out if it still is valuable IP.
Moreover, I think it would be great to share with a new generation of gamers. Too often, people don't credit newer generations with the same natural desires that we once had- such as the desire to learn about history, and natural curiosity. I see all of that in generations coming. Sure, many of them might not care that much about the history, but some of them do. Just like young sports fans become curious about the history of the team. Young MCU fans become curious about the history of characters. Young Star Trek fans become curious about the history of the KHAAAAAAAN memes. And so on.
And while I going to write a longer thread about this after the weekend (you know it's coming), I think it would be pretty cool for people to see a setting that has some of the iconic characters and names that we still hear about today; if nothing else, it will launch thousands of YouTube explainer videos (some of them might even be accurate!). Heck, we still have spells named after some of them in the PHB (Bigby, Drawmij, Evard, Leomund, Melf, Mordenkainen, Nystul, Otiluke, Otto, Rary, Tasha, Tenser). Importantly, Greyhawk is a setting that both has a lot of great hooks and lore, and yet doesn't have an overwhelming amount of canon that constrains, which is a rare mixture.
As to cannibalizing Nentir Vale, I can't really comment. It's not my place to discuss if that's appropriate, simply because I am sure that there are those who would like to see it published separately, and I hope that they get what they want! I am not a huge fan of the FR model of absorbing all settings. That said, if it isn't going to get published, I do think that some of the concepts that they were using for the setting are appealing, and imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Briefly-
I don't think anything in the world is imperative (your choice of emphasis) other than food, safety, and the universal hatred of Bards. I do think that we have the 50th Anniversary coming up, and on or just before that would be the appropriate time to re-visit and reboot Greyhawk. If not then, when? In addition, at a certain point they will probably want to reintroduce just because it's valuable IP- or, at a minimum, to find out if it still is valuable IP.
Moreover, I think it would be great to share with a new generation of gamers. Too often, people don't credit newer generations with the same natural desires that we once had- such as the desire to learn about history, and natural curiosity. I see all of that in generations coming. Sure, many of them might not care that much about the history, but some of them do. Just like young sports fans become curious about the history of the team. Young MCU fans become curious about the history of characters. Young Star Trek fans become curious about the history of the KHAAAAAAAN memes. And so on.
And while I going to write a longer thread about this after the weekend (you know it's coming), I think it would be pretty cool for people to see a setting that has some of the iconic characters and names that we still hear about today; if nothing else, it will launch thousands of YouTube explainer videos (some of them might even be accurate!). Heck, we still have spells named after some of them in the PHB (Bigby, Drawmij, Evard, Leomund, Melf, Mordenkainen, Nystul, Otiluke, Otto, Rary, Tasha, Tenser). Importantly, Greyhawk is a setting that both has a lot of great hooks and lore, and yet doesn't have an overwhelming amount of canon that constrains, which is a rare mixture.
As to cannibalizing Nentir Vale, I can't really comment. It's not my place to discuss if that's appropriate, simply because I am sure that there are those who would like to see it published separately, and I hope that they get what they want! I am not a huge fan of the FR model of absorbing all settings. That said, if it isn't going to get published, I do think that some of the concepts that they were using for the setting are appealing, and imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
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